Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 3

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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Header should read

URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

Ask for access link and pin and please give your name and address in the email as they check when you connect to the tribunal.

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Don't like 'tiny voice' - infantilising speech, which we see a lot, do we not?

Which document is she re-reading?

Adds to bingo card.
Along with ...I was only following orders?
Teeny tiny voices

Ben is going to have a field day with this witness

Copied from TT

BC: I will start with 3 general propositions. 1. First you believe GC views are inherently transphobic and harmful to T people?

LD: GC belief that sex is immutable, binary and fixed has impact on facilities required by T people that are required for their protection and to participate in public life
BC: So inherently harmful?
LD: They can manifest that way, yes

BC: 2. You don't think GC beliefs should be expressible in a uni or academic context and they are against EA2010?
LD: No, that's too broad a statement for me to agree with.

BC: 3. From Spring 2019 to Summer 2021 you repeatedly agitated behind the scenes and publicly to restrict JP and others from expressing those views
LD: I disagree
BC now asking about stopping a conference

The conference is a CCJS conference

LD: I expressed a view about statements. I made a point about how difficult it would be to continue my research on trans prisoners

Thank you @chilling19

BC: Let us be precise with the language

Ld finds 'male bodied' objectionable.

She finds 'male-bodied prisoner' 'male-bodied trans inmate' objectionable.

And now BC focusing on how you can express a GC view if you can't use certain words or phrases

Apparently there are better ways to express that. I wonder if they will give any examples.

I know I keep saying this, but OU -WTF were you thinking with these witnesses? I feel like I am in Ricky Gervais sketch.

According to the witness statement Leigh Downes is non-binary and uses they/them pronouns.

Aha so 'male bodied' is AWFUL but a massive pile on letter trying to get JP fired is FINE.

Noted.

The batshittery is on display full force here. Oh please Daily Mail cover this.

'You can't use these words' ' you are bad'. Explain to me how this isn't an attempt at coercive control?

If s.o. can't use 'male bodied' to describe can't express GC views.

LD: I disagree. [Has disagreed with everyhing so far]

BC: GC people must change their language to yours to be allowed to speak.

LD: I disagree.

Yes, I would love to hear which words we are permitted to use. I'm all ears.

BC - GC people have to use your language. 'They have to concede to mine'

Ooh.

The pronouns question is covered by Dr Downes' WS in which they say they is non-binary and use they /them pronouns. They were not 'out' at work at the time of these events. Their NB status was announced at the department meeting on 1 December 2022.

A support cup?

(I'll get my coat)

Ben - keep your poker face on and let her get on with it

LD finds it objectionable that there is an assumption that trans women are a threat in women's prisons. Trying to explain why the phrase "male-bodied" is objectionable to her - it's a denial of the sense of self of the prisoners.

wow the arrogance

Like it

LD wants to make speeches not answer qs. We're back to GCT.

May be my imagination but both BC and J seem to be on the verge of sighing.

I suspect many prisoners identify as 'not guilty'. Why shouldn't that also be respected?