"If you see a terf ... " Sarah Jane Baker thread 2

[IwantToRetire]

Not sure if anyone wants a second thread but as the issue is still live thought I would start one

Original thread https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4844898-if-you-see-a-terf-punch-them-in-the-fucking-face-speech-at-trans-pride-london-8-july-2023

Don't tell me Laura Pidcock's peaked??

Little OJ will be apoplectic! He was one of her biggest cheerleaders!

Really interesting post.

Wholly agree.

I went to the Evening With Douglas Murray And Lionel Schriver near Parliament in 2019, to promote his Madness Of Crowds book launch, those halcyon days twelve months before lockdown.

It's quaint to look back, just over four years ago, how different it was. Cultural appropriation, the burgeoning of BLM and Stonewall/trans. No feeling of the powder keg yet to come, some anxiety of the pressures on free speech.

The most notorious trans figure then was Yanniv, little did we guess that would be a taste of things to come.

My pivot point was the Oberlin College debacle, things felt ominous on the free speech/racialised politics front in 2018/19 as my chain began to get yanked.

Of course Brexit was also taking up severe amounts of bandwidth.

Then BANG!, Covid and lockdowns struck, all of us stuck at home unless we were lucky enough to attend Tory parties with unlimited cake. And the online world mutated and became reality for so many, impressionable and insecure teens, and the professional classes who saw social justice activism morph to a level unseen prior to 2020.

George Floyd, BLM, Defund The Police, Take The Knee...industrial ramping up of #MeToo...and the rotten cherry on the unappetising cake, Stonewallification of society to unprecedented levels, the deification of the likes of Mermaids, and the slanderous defamatory attacks on JKR primarily, and all who stood alongside her.

And a two year period of the formal attempts to railroad society to accept, actually more to swallow, escalating teen medicalisation, toxic male supremacist rights in sports and sex segregated spaces.

But that two year period ended a year ago. Now the proles are snapping back. We won't accept Adam Bryson in a female jail. We won't accept Austin Killips in female sports. We won't accept Mika Minio breastfeeding.

And we certainly won't fucking accept a violent kidnapping and assaulting castrator gaslight us they're a woman, and instructing naysayers to be punched in the fucking face.

Whatever shark has been nurtured up until 2020, then monstrously mutated in lockdown to 2022, TRA has jumped it well and truly.

We're witnessing that crash landing the other side of the shark, and it's a frightful mess.

I was consulting for a number of large companies during lock down - FTSE 100s, well known brands, you get the idea. They all already had some really good initiatives in place to encourage the career progression of BAME employees to the highest levels, but BLM still made them noticeable panic. I think because BLM was accompanied by quite a vicious online call out culture, haranguing individuals and companies who were seen rightly or wrongly to not be doing enough. So these companies wanted to ensure that their work was properly publicised and I helped them with that.

However a number of them then pivoted to trans rights in the workplace and unquestioningly wanting to institute gender neutral loos, new loo policies (loo of your choice), mandating pronouns in emails etc. When I questioned these desires many executives responded that they didn;t want to risk getting publicly called out or caught out not doing enough, as a number of companies had re BLM.

So I think the two were very much wrongly linked in the instittional imagination.

My clients were genuine in wanting to do the right thing for their employees and stakeholders, and to be seen to be doing the right thing. But they accepted the TRA spiel without any critical thinking or exploration of the basis on which TRA claims are made, because it followed hot on the heels of BLM and the social media storm that accompanied that.

That's why trans-ness ended up being institutionalised so quickly without having any basis in fact, reality, science or public support. That's my theory anyway.

Herd mentality can be pretty messy amongst the hoi polloi. I've been at a few football matches and pro Brexit demos.

But there's something uniquely disquieting when the high IQ and high social capital individuals and corporations indulge.

Just watched a girl who works at McDonalds report how her complaints on sexual assault were waved away by management. At the same time they daubed their advertising in the Pride colours and publicly swore fealty to MeToo.

And the slavish blind adherence to Stonewall edicts is all that's needed to know that TRA is as far removed from a genuine grass roots liberation movement as one could get.

That's why trans-ness ended up being institutionalised so quickly without having any basis in fact, reality, science or public support. That's my theory anyway.

Also "defunding the police" was lacking in evidence or public support.

It was just some vague idea that if you moved money into other services then you would be improving things.

Loud mouthed activists don't necessarily speak for the majority, or have sensible ideas.

I take a more sympathetic view because I work in the corporate world. Until about 15 years ago, companies weren't required to do anything more than maximise profits for shareholders. This was in the Combined Code. But more recently it's become more nuanced, and more demanding. Companies are now expected to think about all stakeholders, and their effect on society as a whole, not just profits.

Obviously this is a good thing in some circumstances. For example the CEO of a big housebuilding firm should absolutely be required to think about and make provisions for the effect on the biodiversity of the land that he's just required for a new affordable housing development. And now he has to. (It obviously sometimes ends up being the case that legal wranglings about the biodiversity result in the affordable housing development being delayed by 10+ years, adding to the housing crisis, but that's another subject.)

However, the same CEO is now expected to also think about trans welfare of his customers, suppliers and employees. That's a problem because the CEO of the housebuilding firm doesn't know anything about trans issues. In the housebuilding sector, he's statistically likely to be a 50+ white man of middle / lower middle class extraction who came up through the ranks of surveying / development and climbed the corporate ladder. He's terrified of getting things wrong and being exposed on Twitter as being a cis white upholder of toxic masculinity. He also wants to keep his employees happy especially the younger generation of talent.

So he outsources the problem to a Diversity Committee, which is often made up of very young employees on the fast track graduate programme, fresh out of Russell Group Unis, highly active on social media, who want to change the world. They in turn bring in Stonewall and maybe nominate Mermaids as the company official corporate charity.

The CEO doesn't really understand what they're doing but sees that they're young and passionate and Very Online, so agrees and gives them a budget. He doesn't understand, not because he's stupid (he's very good at running the housebuilding company) but because it's not his area of expertise, and the social fear of being labelled a bigot prevents him from applying the critical questioning that he routinely does in every other aspect of his business.

So that's how it happens, ime.

I dont think there is any link between BLM and TRAs.

And in fact, deeply entrenched racism in this country means that BLM was quickly sidelined by some unknown quango giving all money, raised by BLM demos, to an unelected group of nice BME academics who in line with Britishh top down politics are handing out little pots of money to "approved" BME groups.

Trans activism, as has been written about elsewhere, is the public appearance of queer politics dating back to the 80s, that through entryism into decisions making groups, the media etc., have effectively captured 90% of public discourse.

Apart from a few right wing papers, the online message and in printed media, is totally pro trans.

And the complete failure to cover the impact of the trans agenda on women and same sex attracted people doesn't even surface in most people's minds.

For instance is there any part of BLM impacting school rooms in the way the trans agenda is now?

No.

And can you imagine if, at a BLM rally, a speaker had got up and said something along the lines of (my justified angers means that I think) if you see a white nationalist punch them in the face?

It would be all over every front page, and the headlines of every news bulletin.

SJB's comments would have gone unremarked on had some on social media pointed it out.

I was random youtubing about Gangs in London and came across this video from an ex prisoner regarding SJB, apparently in Wandsworth: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FMceqzE2Am8

There's also a longer interview with SJB on the page. Buy I haven't watched it so won't link.

'Going back to prison won't do her any good'

No one goes to prison to themselves any good, it's to do good to/ for the outside world by removing the prisoner from where they can do harm!

I can't believe this man is standing up for Baker. Once again only Baker's feelings matter.

I suppose it all depends what the men were dragged off for. Was it for putting scarey stickers on lampposts? Or saying that it is impossible to change sex? Or a crime.

I'm shocked, but then again not, it reminds of the "more balls than Millwall" palaver when feminists were banned from holding a conference at the Football club. I had presumed that the old school code of protect women and children would apply, but nope.

No one goes to prison to themselves any good, it's to do good to/ for the outside world by removing the prisoner from where they can do harm!

Sometimes maybe you should imprison for that reason, in more extreme cases, but generally if you did that there wouldn't be a proportion between the crime and the sentence.

You could just lock everyone up with an indeterminate sentence until the system is satisfied that they are safe to come out. That gets controversial.

But I agree they aren't going to prison for their own good.

Who is this guy and why are they all so sorry for Sara fucking whatever he calls himself.
As for all the supportive comments 😡

I was listening to a podcast by James English where he interviews ex-cons. Yammy the youtuber above was recommended after I watched an interview James did. Clicked on his channel and the SJB video was there. They seem to know eachother through being in jail.

The commentators are unusually supportive because they've only heard SJBs side of the story of why he turned criminal, and SJB name drops famous criminals ( in jail with Bronson) which gives him "clout" to a certain demographic.

@potniatheron

So that's how it happens, ime.

I agree with you.

With the addition that "oh a man can actually be really a woman on the inside, no I can't explain what being a woman on the inside actually means but it's a thing that's true and science says it so you have to treat them exactly the same as any other woman, so even though this might look like men in women's spaces, or sports, or prisons, or men taking women's opportunities or prizes, that's just prejudice and if you could really see them properly it would be obvious they aren't men at all really" is so utterly illogical that it's not just that it's outside our housebuilder CEO's expertise to make sensible decisions, it's that it's impossible to reason about it. Nothing fits, nothing flows logically.

Because it's not just that the assertions of genderism don't fit the facts of history, nor facts of reality that are easily observable today, the ideology isn't even consistent within itself. So no matter how smart and how reasonable and how open minded someone is they can never work out what's "needed" off their own bat. They have to outsource it all to one of the "experts" who can tell them how to get it "right" and avoid the pile on.

Thanks explains a lot. I'm still raging though 😉

Lesbians and women’s groups have been destroyed by these men well before the current emanation. We warned about the takeover and we’re told to be kind. So the groups folded and we meet underground. What a loss, especially for the younger girls and young women who haven’t enjoyed male free spaces and groups. It is not over yet, sadly

To be fair, this Yammy B character wasn't completely Team Baker. The way he talked about Baker's mental health seemed to imply that Baker isn't mentally stable (no shit!) and he didn't say anything about Baker going to a men's prison rather than a women's. He also mentioned Bakers 'campaigns' without commenting on the substance of the matter, as if it's just Baker's hobby or something.

I think he's a typical you tuber who has to chime in with his two cents. Plus it's probably part of his reformed ex-con spiritual persona to say something nice. A dude sticking up for a another dude because it doesn't cost him anything

You're right - there isn't any link between BLM and trans.

But TRAs cynically FORCED a link. As soon as BLM became a thing, in summer 2020, #blacktranslivesmatter began trending, and Black Trans Lives Matter posters were seen on marches, and the woker end of the influencer/celeb spectrum adopted this as a talking point.

There was a big TRA tlaking point at the time, and I apologise in advance for offending anyone by reminding you, but the TRAs were saying that Black women weren't historically seen as women, but more like men. Therefore, the argument went, if you don't see transwomen as women, then you also don't see Black women as women. Therefore, unless you support trans rights, you are racist.

Can you imagine anything more racist and disgusting than that! But it was a HUGE talking point online in 2020 - 2021. TRAs were cynically piggybacking off of a real movement and using it for their own ends, just like PIE did with the gay rights movement in the 1970s.

When I saw this disgusting argument being made, I decided to read up the original sources from antebellum slave traders in the Deep South, and the language used in Jim Crow, to see if the racist power structures of the time did, indeed, see Black women as quasi-men. And guess what? I couldn't find anything. Even in the most dehumanising language used by slave traders in advertising their 'wares' in advance of slave markets, they still describe their enslaved Black women in traditionally sexist feminine terms - in terms of their reproductive ability, their skills at housework, caring for children, needlework etc. So I'd like to see where the TRAs got this horrible racist idea from. Because they never post any sources for their claim.

Anyway, don't listen to me - visit Lipstick Alley, the world's biggest website run by Black women for Black women. See what they've got to say about the TRA idea that Black women and transwomen are somehow equivalent. Prepare yourself for some....very forthright views.

In fact, read Lipstick Alley on TRA matters in general. This is a demographic which saw the truth far earlier than we did, and weren't shy of expressing it, either.

I don't get how Baker removed his own testicles - a horrific, violent act I don't like to imagine - in 2017, and was then judged fit to be out of prison in 2019.

In a sane world someone who enacts that level of violence on themselves would need deep and intensive psychiatric care, and a full evaluation to establish the extent of their self-professed personality disorder(s). Instead, he was given oestrogen and set free to be feted by the trans rights movement and the likes of Lloyd Rroyd Mmoyd.

Just coming back to a previous point which I cannot believe has been made by TRAs.

If women = trans women and also women = non men ...then substituting for women in the equation...

non trans women = non men so if we strike out the non from the equation

trans women = men

Who knew???

If women = adult human female I don't think it was the "female" part that was being questioned/deliberately undermined. It was the human part. It was part of a deliberate attempt to dehumanise a group of people in order to treat them terribly. To compare that to transwomen being "dehumanised" because people say they aren't women is ridiculous and insulting. Their humanity isn't being denied, just their self-identified gender/sex. Not The Same.

I am not convinced that someone who actually removed their testicles was released so soon by the UK Prison System. I just don't believe him.