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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

sarah ditum on Posie parker

1000 replies

narcymum · 23/09/2022 22:33

Just saw a tweet where she calls PP a 'poundshop marine le Pen'
WTF! why are women who are supposedly in this fight together actively trying to sabotage another woman's activism?
Can we not move away from this schoolyard shit?

OP posts:
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23
FOJN · 28/09/2022 20:36

BitossiBlues

Brilliant post, thank you.

It really does feel like no matter what KJK does they will move the goal posts.

Clymene · 28/09/2022 21:14

@BitossiBlues - great post.

The goalposts are always being moved. KJK has been viewed with suspicion ever since she got kicked off Mumsnet and lost her shit publicly with gender ideology. Her failure to ask permission has made her a target ever since.

christinarossetti39 · 28/09/2022 21:53

I don't think WPUK have ever hired Millwall Football Club - pretty sure that that was one of Venice Allen and possibly Julia Long's events quite a few years ago.

The 'head girls' thing is odd. Describing women like Julie Bindel like this minimises the work she has done supporting the rights of women and girls, and going head to head with gender ideologists for nearly 20 years. She has a large following because she's a successful journalist.

JCJ hadn't been at the coal face for so long but is a successful academic. She's spent hours and hours advocating for feminism on Twitter, edits a feminist journal, has written books etc. She also has a large following because she's good at what she does.

Both them and WPUK are clear that they feel deeply let down by the left but that right-wing, racist, nationalist politics have no place in their feminism. That's why they criticise KJK. And following the events in Brighton, there is now video footage in circulation of feminists being the same side of a police line as populist right-wing actors like Hearts of Oak, Michael Chave, 'Matt the Hat', One Man Reports, which makes it harder for feminists like them to counteract accusations that 'we work with the right'.

Interesting that you see KJK as someone who doesn't want to be a leader. I had a quick browse through her online shop yesterday (last looked when it was all AHF) and was struck by how much merch there is with her image on it. No problem with that if that's what she wants, but I can't see how that sits with someone who doesn't want to be a leader. Ditto her 'I. Never. Lose.' mantra.

(The 'Make Women Female Again' baseball cap was a bit of a shocker tbh

It remains intriguing to me how someone very clearly middle class (again, have no problem with that) is so keen to tell her followers that 'they' don't understand working class women when there are plenty of working class women whose feminism is rooted in class based politics.

MangyInseam · 28/09/2022 22:32

Right up till JB wants to write for the Daily Mail or go on an American speaking tour, right? She's ok for that kind of interaction with the right wing, not scared people will associate her cause with the wrong sort.

She doesn't want anything other than her vision of what "left" means in her own politics. Fair enough. But she clearly has zero respect for women whose viewpoints don't toe her line and would rather they have no voice in women's issues.

Hepwo · 28/09/2022 22:49

Julie Bindel is in the Spectator right between Julia Hartley Brewer and Julie Burchill. She's funded by the right wing.

You have to accuse a lot of people of having a "place for right-wing, racist, nationalist politics" if you want to sweep up KJK in that category to malign her.

christinarossetti39 · 28/09/2022 23:03

I don't agree that JB has no respect for other women's views and voices. She's pretty robust about her own views and her most vocal arguments are against patriarchy. gender ideology and homophobia.

JB and other feminist journalists write for the Spectator, Mail, Spiked because the left won't touch them. It's the only way they can get published. I think these right-wing platforms are a problem, but it's a wee bit different from inviting right-wing populist groups to an event that would have gone ahead without them.

It's not 'maligning' KJK saying that she's happy for these groups to live steam LWS events under their branding. She's said that clearly herself and, as was said a few posts ago, has open arms for everyone regardless of their political affiliations or lack thereof.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 28/09/2022 23:17

but it's a wee bit different from inviting right-wing populist groups to an event that would have gone ahead without them

ah awesome

so you’ll know whether she invited them or not, ive heard this a lot

BitossiBlues · 28/09/2022 23:59

JCJ hadn't been at the coal face for so long but is a successful academic. She's spent hours and hours advocating for feminism on Twitter, edits a feminist journal, has written books etc. She also has a large following because she's good at what she does.

Academic feminism and twitter bullying of other women, calling them names, telling them LARPers have a greater place in their movement than an actual woman - none of this reaches ordinary women. She may be good at what she does, but what she does is not interesting to the vast majority of the people who will bring about the necessary changes through grass roots activism.

Both them and WPUK are clear that they feel deeply let down by the left but that right-wing, racist, nationalist politics have no place in their feminism. That's why they criticise KJK. And following the events in Brighton, there is now video footage in circulation of feminists being the same side of a police line as populist right-wing actors like Hearts of Oak, Michael Chave, 'Matt the Hat', One Man Reports, which makes it harder for feminists like them to counteract accusations that 'we work with the right'.

How many more times. KJK's activism has nothing to do with feminism, so she cannot be bringing feminism into disrepute. She's not with them. They've made that clear, she's made that clear. She has no control over being filmed by anyone turning up to an open public space. Anyone has the right to film anything happening in public. Being right wing is not actually a crime. Many of the best, brightest and most effective gender critical commentators and activists are on the right. If those feminists don't work with the right, then they need to stop using publications like the Spectator and the Daily Mail. Otherwise they look like gross hypocrites.

Interesting that you see KJK as someone who doesn't want to be a leader. I had a quick browse through her online shop yesterday (last looked when it was all AHF) and was struck by how much merch there is with her image on it. No problem with that if that's what she wants, but I can't see how that sits with someone who doesn't want to be a leader. Ditto her 'I. Never. Lose.' mantra.

None of her merchandise has her image on it. There are only 3 things vaguely depicting a human being. A mug and jumper with a Marilyn Monroe-esq face (meant to depict real women), a sticker with a female toilet insignia figure, and a sticker with a drag queen. Are you talking about her shop insignia (cartoon blonde with an umbrella)? That's not merchandise, that's packaging, e.g., the cardboard backing for a badge/pin. You don't wear the packaging. How does "I never lose" denote leadership?

The 'Make Women Female Again' baseball cap was a bit of a shocker tbh

Why? It's a pastiche on a political slogan. Red is the colour of the left in this country. It's a hat, not a hand grenade. What is so shocking?

It remains intriguing to me how someone very clearly middle class (again, have no problem with that) is so keen to tell her followers that 'they' don't understand working class women when there are plenty of working class women whose feminism is rooted in class based politics.

Whatever you are trying to say here makes very little sense. Whether or not "they" believe they understand working class women, and whether or not they have any actual experience of being working class, what "they" don't do is connect with ordinary women who look at what is happening with gender politics and feel fucking terrified. Reading some article on feminist theory is not going to help you sleep better at night or feel any less powerless and helpless. When you don't have the words, and won't be heard at any feminist meeting because you are not a feminist academic/lawyer/author/thinker, who is going to hear you? Do you know how powerful it feels to do something as simple but as bold as putting on a t-shirt? Doing something for your own self - finding the courage to wear something that might connect with other women seeing you walk by - is a huge deal for ordinary women.

The Speaker's Corner meeting encourage these ordinary voices and gives them power. Do you hear who speaks at these meetings and on Posie's channel? Not academic feminists with their impenetrable language and academic in jokes. Ordinary people are given a voice. A female ex prisoner, who had the coil fitted - first time using hormonal contraception - before she served her sentence because she feared sexual assault. Ordinary mothers who are terrified for their children being transitioned by schools. Gay men and women pushed out of their communities, and who have found renewed strength through the example set by Posie to be your own activist. Have a listen to Posie's call in programme last night. Those are the people she connects with and who are grateful she keeps on going, despite all the hate spewed at her from all sides.

Hepwo · 28/09/2022 23:59

They have to lie about being invited to exaggerate the crime.

Julie Bindel is invited to a right wing platform, accepts and takes money for it. She wants to reach fash you see. It's ok when Julie is invited by fash. And read by fash and spends the fash cash.

KJK, well there wasn't enough of a crime so they just lied and demanded repentance for it.

Datun · 29/09/2022 00:34

She didn't invite them.

And as she points out, they are listening to her, not her to them.

Both them and WPUK are clear that they feel deeply let down by the left but that right-wing, racist, nationalist politics have no place in their feminism.

And they have every right to say that.

But why are they criticising another woman who isn't even campaigning for feminism. What's it got to do with them?

That's why they criticise KJK. And following the events in Brighton, there is now video footage in circulation of feminists being the same side of a police line as populist right-wing actors like Hearts of Oak, Michael Chave, 'Matt the Hat', One Man Reports, which makes it harder for feminists like them to counteract accusations that 'we work with the right'.

But the only people who are saying KJK works with the right is them. This is coming from them!

We're seeing it played out on here. People utterly determined to find a non existent relationship between Posie and the people she didn't even know were there. And then malign her for it.

MangyInseam · 29/09/2022 02:21

I'm sorry, saying your meeting is non-political, and therefore open to people of any political stripe, is not aligning yourself with any political tribe. Just like a meeting open to people of any religion is not aligning itself with any religion.

Do people see how crazy that even sounds. "I noticed some Catholics at our fly-tying meeting last night. Be assured they are welcome to come and tie flies." "You Papist!"

But that's the real issue, yes? Women thinking they can act, or think, on women's issues without joining the right club.

FlowersBloomInAutumn · 29/09/2022 02:31

It was a public space and absolutely anyone could be there. Is anyone else responsible for anyone and everyone who is in the same public space as them?

Really

FOJN · 29/09/2022 05:41

there is now video footage in circulation of feminists being the same side of a police line as populist right-wing actors like Hearts of Oak, Michael Chave, 'Matt the Hat', One Man Reports, which makes it harder for feminists like them to counteract accusations that 'we work with the right'.

Knowing the nickname and YouTube channel (I had to Google) of a "populist right wing actor" suggests you are far better acquainted with these people than I am.

witchyw · 29/09/2022 07:06

DJ lippy wrote an excellent piece on this

TheClogLady · 29/09/2022 07:48

FOJN · 29/09/2022 05:41

there is now video footage in circulation of feminists being the same side of a police line as populist right-wing actors like Hearts of Oak, Michael Chave, 'Matt the Hat', One Man Reports, which makes it harder for feminists like them to counteract accusations that 'we work with the right'.

Knowing the nickname and YouTube channel (I had to Google) of a "populist right wing actor" suggests you are far better acquainted with these people than I am.

Totslly.

who the fuck are these people anyway?

And yes, Lippy’s piece is excellent.

Here’s the text version: makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/feminism-and-the-far-left-let-women-speak

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 29/09/2022 08:15

They have to lie about being invited to exaggerate the crime

I don’t look at kjk stuff, I don’t know what shes like as a person, i think verbally shes made the odd misstep like many of us humans, i know shes not a feminist and I don’t worship her

but i do find it interesting that some people are very invested in changing peoples opinion of her (i dont really have one)

the thing that makes me laugh is that FWR regulars drop a link and say here is a link, people who want posters to disavow kjk virtually shove the links down our throats…now i need to go and look at the merchandise to look and see a hat 😳

im not going to cos im a lazy fucker

i want to know if the invite is an outright lie…cos if people are lying about something what else are they lying about, it’s basically overegging the pudding

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 29/09/2022 08:17

Knowing the nickname and YouTube channel (I had to Google) of a "populist right wing actor" suggests you are far better acquainted with these people than I am

absolutely!!!

i have never in my whole life had any ‘far right’ websites suggested to me…except on mumsnet

christinarossetti39 · 29/09/2022 08:35

If you're involved in women's services in Brighton, you will have heard of these people, as they have put smoke bombs through the letter boxes of family planning clinics there.

Whether KJK regards herself as a feminist or not is immaterial - her event in Brighton directly affects women working on the ground there.

I would rather not be acquainted with these people, believe me.

Interestingly, I've been involved in scores of feminist and political meetings over the years but they've never set up a tripod at the front and live streamed onto their channel. They wouldn't bother because they'd be shown the door. Never heard of them being at other SFW events, Filia conferences etc. Wonder what made the SFW event at Brighton different?

'Make women female again' is derived from a particular political slogan. Everyone knows that it's Trump, the most famous right wing populist in recent years. If that's not a problem, why try to neutralise championing Trump's politics into it's just a political slogan?

Similarly, why try to pretend that KJK's merch doesn't have stylised images of her on it? No way would someone as skilled and efficient at marketing as her not do this deliberately.

And taking a people of all politics welcome approach is quite different from taking the approach of being prepared to 'stand with the devil himself' (KJK's words, not mine) so having no moral or other boundaries about who you work with, I would say.

I watched Maria Mc's video about Brighton last night. It looked horrific, really scary aggression from the TAs. Problem is, that when they were shouting 'police protect the fascists' they were right. I can't recall any other time when aggressive TAs were actually saying anything truthful.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 29/09/2022 08:40

well the obvious answer is that Filia and WPUK are running conferences where people have to book & sometimes pay to attend

KJK event was in a completely open public space where anyone can just go along

but you know this

TheClogLady · 29/09/2022 08:49

Wonder what made the SFW event at Brighton different?

It was in the open air and free to attend.

That’s the difference.

Oh, also, Posie has a bigger, wider reach than most. Probably similar to JB at this point but Julie has been reduced to speaking in a car park due to the problem of losing your ticketed venue at the last minute.

Which is why Posie does open air events/speakers corners.

christinarossetti39 · 29/09/2022 08:53

So why did the SFW event in Brighton draw these prominent right-wing groups and individuals (prominent if you're aware of the right-wing's attempts to latch onto women's issues and groups) when other SFW events haven't?

The event at Hampstead Heath ladies pond just a couple of weeks earlier looked very pleasant and calm.

Hepwo · 29/09/2022 09:00

Brighton is a lightening rod for the disaffected.

They were there because it's Brighton.

You are all sounding a bit desperate now.

TheClogLady · 29/09/2022 09:03

I thought there were two attendees who belong to a group on the UKIP/Brexit/Freemarketeer/Christian right?

When did we find out there were multiple prominent right wing groups and individuals there?

And in case you hadn’t noticed, we have a conservative government, so a group of ordinary people is going to include some on the right (unlike, say, a ticketed socialist orgs event).

NecessaryScene · 29/09/2022 09:03

I see no immediate reason to suppose the Brighton event was different from any other in that regard. Has anyone done the same sort of exhaustive audit of those other events?

The key difference seems to be that Brighton has local "feminists" keen to promote right-wing groups, rather than women, so they become the focus.

FOJN · 29/09/2022 09:18

JB and other feminist journalists write for the Spectator, Mail, Spiked because the left won't touch them. It's the only way they can get published. I think these right-wing platforms are a problem, but it's a wee bit different from inviting right-wing populist groups to an event that would have gone ahead without them.

The left won't touch a lefty feminist, don't you think there's a problem there? Everyone has to make a living but it's probably best not to treat the people providing you with an income with contempt, especially since your own side would rather see you starve that give you a platform.

Don't expect me to take you serious when you need to lie to make your argument. KJK did not invite a right wing populist group. She issued an open invitation, she wants the message heard by as many people as possible. I appreciate those who value purity above all else will struggle to understand that an open invitation doesn't just mean people you like and agree with.

Its pretty obvious the accusations against KJK and the Brighton Let Women Speak event are just another distraction. Throw mud and watch people waste energy defending themselves against baseless accusations. We've been called transphobes, racists, antisemites and now fascists. The name calling is like water off a ducks back, I no longer give a fuck.

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