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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

sarah ditum on Posie parker

1000 replies

narcymum · 23/09/2022 22:33

Just saw a tweet where she calls PP a 'poundshop marine le Pen'
WTF! why are women who are supposedly in this fight together actively trying to sabotage another woman's activism?
Can we not move away from this schoolyard shit?

OP posts:
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23
MangyInseam · 27/09/2022 19:32

TheClogLady · 27/09/2022 18:46

Milo is another pompous prick who turned out to be a massive loser rather than the devil incarnate.

In JB’s defence I think the tour was before the Ghostbusters release so likely before the Twitter bullying of Lesley Jones and the comments about underage gay sex (which Milo has since claimed were him minimising his own experience of what he now sees as predatory older men).

I CBA go double check the timeline because Milo is pretty irrelevant now.

Anyway, debate is good and JB doing so openly with Milo was interesting and quite brave at the time (and you can see they actually enjoy each others company through the jibing and sparring and crikey knows we need to lighten up all the pofaced politics a bit). I just wish that JB and others could extend a bit of grace towards Posie rather than taking up a stance that looks awfully like ‘fine for me but not for thee’.

But he was still so controversial! Like way beyond anything PP has ever contemplated. And his audience was much more weirdo American right-wingers than the people that she's talked to over the years.

It's very do what I say not what I do from JB.

Rheia1983 · 27/09/2022 19:32

Speaking as a (part-time) lurker of FWR: I find the behaviour of Sarah Ditum, Ruth Serwotka, Jane Clare Jones et al. (as well as of those who support such conduct) thoroughly offputting.

I'll remember this when making decisions on who I support with either my money and/or time.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 27/09/2022 19:39

Rheia1983 · 27/09/2022 19:32

Speaking as a (part-time) lurker of FWR: I find the behaviour of Sarah Ditum, Ruth Serwotka, Jane Clare Jones et al. (as well as of those who support such conduct) thoroughly offputting.

I'll remember this when making decisions on who I support with either my money and/or time.

Me too, it is really disappointing. Feet of clay and all that.

BenCoopersSupportWren · 27/09/2022 19:46

But the unifying factor is caring about the oppressed and working-class people and wanting a more equal society.

I genuinely used to believe this of the Left. I still believe in freely accessible healthcare, housing, education; a welfare safety net that doesn’t demonise people as if poverty were a moral failing. But the modern Left seems to have an offputtingly paternalistic view of working class people (and to an extent, those from minority ethnic backgrounds). They’re good for virtue signalling what a good little right-side-of-history ally one is, but they’re not to be trusted with actual power (see also: women, original variety).

The irony of today’s Labour leader being called Keir, when Keir Hardie - or any working class person of his ilk, man or woman - wouldn’t get a look in at a shot of power in the party these days is not lost on me.

BitossiBlues · 27/09/2022 19:46

@AlienatedChildGrown I don't agree with cancelling - I saw him on Bill Maher a couple of times, he was entertaining. I thought he was like a little boy trying to impress/shock the oldies, probably didn't believe half of what he was saying, and could be easily challenged. I make no judgment on what Milo thinks/feels about his own sexual experience; but he did tread a very fine line between talking about himself, and dismissing the age of consent and potentially abusive situations in the wider sphere of gay relationships. This is the transcript of what Milo he said:

heavy.com/news/2017/02/milo-yiannopolous-pedophilia-transcript-pederasty-video-full-sex-boys-men-catholic-priest-cpac-quotes/

With regard to his Twitter ban, this came out of the all female Ghostbusters reboot and the abuse the female actors were getting from men on Twitter. He went after black actress, Leslie Jones, accusing her of playing the victim and calling her "barely literate" amongst other things. What he said was deemed to be racist. I don't know everything he said as it's all disappeared now, but I thought he was married to a person of colour, so who knows? I think he ended up paying the price for what thousands of other men had already said, in much worse terms, to the female actors. He was an easy target for a ban, but completely stupid to interject himself in the thing anyway. Again I just think he's like a stupid little boy trying to impress the crowd.

I wasn't aware of his history with Ben Shapiro. But doesn't Milo say he himself is Jewish? In which case, once again, he was whipping up a controversy for effect, rather than out of conviction/actual prejudice.

And now he is "ex-gay", promoting conversion therapy, has apparently demoted his husband (the once professed love of his life) to house mate, and working for Margery Taylor Green. He's a bullshitter.

TheClogLady · 27/09/2022 19:49

MangyInseam · 27/09/2022 19:32

But he was still so controversial! Like way beyond anything PP has ever contemplated. And his audience was much more weirdo American right-wingers than the people that she's talked to over the years.

It's very do what I say not what I do from JB.

Absolutely! He was a proper Alt Right mover and shaker up until what, 6 years ago?

Turned out to be a damp squib but it seemed like mainstream media types in the US were genuinely scared of his charisma/potential.

Perhaps that fear was more a symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome than anything really specific to Milo but yes, Julie working with him, really working with him, travelling internationally with him, is far ‘worse’ (by left purity standards) than anything Posie has ever said or done, and Milo was a far more recognisable, prominent, extreme right winger* than anyone Posie has been within shouting distance of.

*or maybe just a young, impulsive troll making the most of a glamorous media ride?

turbonerd · 27/09/2022 19:49

But he was still so controversial! Like way beyond anything PP has ever contemplated. And his audience was much more weirdo American right-wingers than the people that she's talked to over the years.

he was indeed. (Milo, that is). I remember a last ditch attempt to hitch himself to the Proud Boys in the US after his fall from sort-of grace. Documented by a chappie on my national telly (I’m not in the UK anymore).

Sooo. How does JB feel about that?
Or any others ‘allying’ with her. Should they denounce themselves for kind of being allies with Proud Boys?
For clarity: I do not think they should. And they may not even BE allies with PB for all I know.

MangyInseam · 27/09/2022 19:55

If I recall correctly, in terms of the ex-gay thing, MY seems now to feel that the sexual grooming as a teen had a lot to do with him coming to see himself as gay. And he believes this is a possible thing that can happen. Which is why he decided on taking a step back from it.

I have no idea whether that really reflects his life or not, but I don't think it's a crazy idea that should make him persona non grata. (Not that it is what he was canceled for, but I think many on the liberal side consider it to be beyond the pale.)

TheClogLady · 27/09/2022 19:57

The weird thing about The Proud Boys is that the co-founder, Gavin McInnes, was one of the founders of Vice and was an active part of the company from 1994-2008.

Therefore, in modern day, tenuous Guilt By Association terms, every TRA who has ever shared a pro trans Vice puff piece (like the weird piss soaked activist outside the EHRC) is connected to The Proud Boys.

MangyInseam · 27/09/2022 20:03

BenCoopersSupportWren · 27/09/2022 19:46

But the unifying factor is caring about the oppressed and working-class people and wanting a more equal society.

I genuinely used to believe this of the Left. I still believe in freely accessible healthcare, housing, education; a welfare safety net that doesn’t demonise people as if poverty were a moral failing. But the modern Left seems to have an offputtingly paternalistic view of working class people (and to an extent, those from minority ethnic backgrounds). They’re good for virtue signalling what a good little right-side-of-history ally one is, but they’re not to be trusted with actual power (see also: women, original variety).

The irony of today’s Labour leader being called Keir, when Keir Hardie - or any working class person of his ilk, man or woman - wouldn’t get a look in at a shot of power in the party these days is not lost on me.

I think a lot of this stems from, "caring about the oppressed and working class people".

That is quite different than being a party that is itself a vehicle for working class people to engage politically for their own interests.

Is there any question that if the LP membership was really mostly W/C, or the MPS, that they would be taking the policy direction we see now? Or even made up of a lot of first and second generation minorities as well?

This is why it's paternalistic, it's not about people looking for policies that will give them good stable jobs in good stable communities with good stable services. It's about hand outs for people to keep them on side so the middle class LP membership can keep the economy running in the way that is most advantageous for them and their kids can go study and work in Europe for a few years. (If they had their way, obv.)

EdithStourton · 27/09/2022 20:09

TheClogLady · 27/09/2022 14:38

Here you go Patti - I posted it earlier in the thread but it seems the right time for another upload!

(from the ‘Reality’s Last Stand’ substack)

That meme is 100% my recent political history.

It doesn't help that I have a relative by marriage who is a fully qualified Leftwaffe gunner. She regularly swoops past firing at us for our inadequately right-on lifestyle, thereby guaranteeing that I loathe her politics.

AlienatedChildGrown · 27/09/2022 20:13

BitossiBlues · 27/09/2022 19:46

@AlienatedChildGrown I don't agree with cancelling - I saw him on Bill Maher a couple of times, he was entertaining. I thought he was like a little boy trying to impress/shock the oldies, probably didn't believe half of what he was saying, and could be easily challenged. I make no judgment on what Milo thinks/feels about his own sexual experience; but he did tread a very fine line between talking about himself, and dismissing the age of consent and potentially abusive situations in the wider sphere of gay relationships. This is the transcript of what Milo he said:

heavy.com/news/2017/02/milo-yiannopolous-pedophilia-transcript-pederasty-video-full-sex-boys-men-catholic-priest-cpac-quotes/

With regard to his Twitter ban, this came out of the all female Ghostbusters reboot and the abuse the female actors were getting from men on Twitter. He went after black actress, Leslie Jones, accusing her of playing the victim and calling her "barely literate" amongst other things. What he said was deemed to be racist. I don't know everything he said as it's all disappeared now, but I thought he was married to a person of colour, so who knows? I think he ended up paying the price for what thousands of other men had already said, in much worse terms, to the female actors. He was an easy target for a ban, but completely stupid to interject himself in the thing anyway. Again I just think he's like a stupid little boy trying to impress the crowd.

I wasn't aware of his history with Ben Shapiro. But doesn't Milo say he himself is Jewish? In which case, once again, he was whipping up a controversy for effect, rather than out of conviction/actual prejudice.

And now he is "ex-gay", promoting conversion therapy, has apparently demoted his husband (the once professed love of his life) to house mate, and working for Margery Taylor Green. He's a bullshitter.

I do actually believe him when he talks about where his perspective came from. He has a definite type. And twink it is not. I think between rationalising his early sexual experiences and his popularity for shockjocking in the New Age of SM he turned the volume up to 11, made a fucking great big bear trap for himself and walked straight into it.

I thought he got banned for a faked tweet, an altered screenshot. I know it was during Ghostbusters 2 but I can’t remember the details.

Oh the ex gay thing is totally fake. But … like Racheal Denziol (spelling?) bills have to be paid. Niether of them can get normal jobs due to infamy, former earning streams bombed out the water, so fake ex- gay for him, and only fans for her.

The #bekind people are having lots of fun online with both. I just feel sorry for them and think they both need therapy and a second chance to live some kind of life that doesn’t involve being humiliated. I’ll say the same for Yaniv, but I don’t think therapy will cut it there, and there’s a potential “danger to self and others” that might require some kind of supervision. But I’m not in their #bekind gang, so what would I know about the the quality of mercy and all that jazz.

IRC Milo is jewish through his maternal line, Catholic through his mum. Got the impression he used jewish to hack off the identitarians with label Top Trumps. No idea where he stands on being anti-semitic for real rather than retaliating against a man whose respect he wanted, whose light he wanted to share, but rejected him. And not for insignificant reasons. Shapiro said he had receipts, and it did sound very plausible given Milo’s other “high jinx” on SM.

AlienatedChildGrown · 27/09/2022 20:22

MangyInseam · 27/09/2022 19:55

If I recall correctly, in terms of the ex-gay thing, MY seems now to feel that the sexual grooming as a teen had a lot to do with him coming to see himself as gay. And he believes this is a possible thing that can happen. Which is why he decided on taking a step back from it.

I have no idea whether that really reflects his life or not, but I don't think it's a crazy idea that should make him persona non grata. (Not that it is what he was canceled for, but I think many on the liberal side consider it to be beyond the pale.)

I didn’t hear about that. I only saw him selling statues of Our Lady Of …somewhere, on a Catholic kind of shopping TV channel, so I just assumed “new gig, new label”.

All power to him if it’s real, and not internet “realness”. If it helps somebody who got stuck at a point in time when the grown ups made their wants a priority over a teenager child’s needs, all power, time & healing. It’s a hard road getting yourself unstuck and finally being able to let time flow through you again.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/09/2022 21:31

As Sargon is not a fascist but is instead a publicly declared believer in free speech, I fully expect him to defend my right to call him a pompous prick on Mumsnet.

He is. And a self declared antifeminist. But occasionally is interesting to listen to, though I always find him a few days behind MN on these specific issues! My DP (a bit of a contrarian, not easy to pin down politically) likes his podcast and flags up anything he thinks I might want to listen to.

TheClogLady · 27/09/2022 22:03

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/09/2022 21:31

As Sargon is not a fascist but is instead a publicly declared believer in free speech, I fully expect him to defend my right to call him a pompous prick on Mumsnet.

He is. And a self declared antifeminist. But occasionally is interesting to listen to, though I always find him a few days behind MN on these specific issues! My DP (a bit of a contrarian, not easy to pin down politically) likes his podcast and flags up anything he thinks I might want to listen to.

The Lotus Eaters chaps totally lurk Mumsnet for stories 😉

AlienatedChildGrown · 27/09/2022 22:29

TheClogLady · 27/09/2022 22:03

The Lotus Eaters chaps totally lurk Mumsnet for stories 😉

< squints suspiciously >

Is it known if any of them have ever declared a particular affection for antelopes ?

AlienatedChildGrown · 28/09/2022 09:13

I can’t open the locals link on standing for women website. iPad has had hissy fits since last update. Does anybody know if there is an Italy group ? Or Switzerland, that’d be nearer to me than anything down South.

I’ve duckduckgoed but so far come up empty.

pattihews · 28/09/2022 09:23

Nothing comes up when I click on the Local and Locals buttons on the web page. As far as I'm aware Standing for Women only operates in the UK, although its merchandise is available for those outside the UK.

Childrenofthestones · 28/09/2022 10:57

When they are attacking the way you look and not your arguments you know you are winning.
It's return of the mean girls.

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2022 14:21

There was a caller from Switzerland to terf Talk Tuesday last night. She is trying to organise stuff. Im sure if you get in touch with SfW they will be able to point you in the right direction.

BitossiBlues · 28/09/2022 16:24

Has anyone heard of Sumptuary Laws? A commentator I saw recently compared the silencing of LGB people by the T /SJWvoices as a form of modern sumptuary. I think it can be applied here too with the head girls and KJK.

Sumptuary was an ancient way for the nobility to keep the bourgeoisie in their place, by implementing arbitrary laws about what anyone outside of the nobility could dress in and consume. For example, only the nobility could wear the colour purple.
If a bourgeoise wore that colour, they would face severe penalties. From Wiki:

In Late Medieval cities, sumptuary laws were instituted as a way for the nobility to limit the conspicuous consumption of the prosperous bourgeoisie. Bourgeois subjects appearing to be as wealthy as or wealthier than the ruling nobility could undermine the nobility's presentation of themselves as powerful, legitimate rulers. This could call into question their ability to control and defend their fief, thus inspire traitors and rebels.

It feels like JCJ et al are trying to stop KJK from wearing purple. They are instigating arbitrary rules about who KJK can "mix' with, how and with whom she can platform her cause - rules to which they are not subject. Hence Julie Bindel can write for the Daily Mail and hang out with an alt-right gobshite; and WPUK can book venues like Millwall Football Club, with its history of endemic racism, without criticism; JCJ can claim to be gender critical whilst bigging up women face actors; I don't think they have the nerve to go after the excellent Kara Dansky for accepting the Fox News platform, but pillory KJK for doing the same.

They can also cash in on the "GC" cause with their books and articles, but KJK's merchandise is a no-no, something to look down their noses on. Even though a simple 4 word phrase on a billboard and a few stickers have made more impact on ordinary women - and got more TRA backs up both here and internationally - than a thousand untouched books gathering dust in Waterstones. Just glimpsing a t-shirt passing you by or a sticker on a lamp post in your home town, knowing there's another woman that shares your hopes and fears on your doorstep, means more than some far away commentator and their article buried in a broadsheet you don't have time to read. The "Be The Billboard" concept is genius. We don't need to know the intricacies of Dworkin et al to make an impact. Simple but effective methods that have captured the imagination of thousands of us, and turned the ordinary woman on the street into a stickering, slogan wearing guerrilla fighter.

Posie is not a feminist and doesn't want to be a feminist leader. She has made this clear. She calls herself a "femalist" , because she says she is doing what she does for all females, not just an elite few at the top of "feminism". Much like one of JCJ's other targets, Karen Davis, who refuses to use the "GC" moniker, but prefers "biological realist", because she has been told, very firmly, she is not welcome in the "GC Feminist" club as defined by the likes of JCJ. As PP have said, her strength is giving no fucks and having open arms to all. She's not going to sneer at you for not having read the right books or adhering to the "correct" politics. She is by no means perfect, but she's effective in a way nobody else on the GC side has been.

BitossiBlues · 28/09/2022 16:27

AlienatedChildGrown · 28/09/2022 09:13

I can’t open the locals link on standing for women website. iPad has had hissy fits since last update. Does anybody know if there is an Italy group ? Or Switzerland, that’d be nearer to me than anything down South.

I’ve duckduckgoed but so far come up empty.

Link to Women's Declaration International Switzerland page:

womensdeclaration.com/en/country-info/switzerland/

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2022 18:09

Great comment bitossi.

TheClogLady · 28/09/2022 18:22

beastlyslumber · 28/09/2022 18:09

Great comment bitossi.

Seconded.

QueenHippolyta · 28/09/2022 19:13

Bitossi; abso-fecking-lutely

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