sarah ditum on Posie parker

[narcymum]

Just saw a tweet where she calls PP a 'poundshop marine le Pen'
WTF! why are women who are supposedly in this fight together actively trying to sabotage another woman's activism?
Can we not move away from this schoolyard shit?

When a video is on YouTube, it can be shared by anyone. Anyone at all!!

What is the difference between sharing a video stream to whoever you want, and taking your own footage?

This is the new era of content distribution. Once it is out there, you can not control it.

So what is the difference?

Should every single speaker from now on state a new feminist mantra declaring who they don’t align with incase their content gets shared?

I have asked before. What would have happened if someone takes still photos and shares them? Ok? Not ok?

And what will For Women Scotland have to do in case people who they don’t align with turn up to their rally? so that they don’t suffer this same fate as Kellie Jay Keen.

Is it ok to just restate the feminist mantra of not aligning with each speaker. What happens if people cut those declarations off in post editing and posting as sections with commentary?

There are just so many people repeating ‘if she just did x or y’ and I have seen no relevant or usable suggestions how it can be done. I can only assume people understand that it is not possible to have this format of rally and have strict control of who is present and who also takes footage, they understand this so will just keep repeating it knowing that Kellie Jay will never be able to satisfy the demand.

Because, people will either take footage themselves or will just share the existing footage. Does she also have to declare she is not aligned to the extreme trans activists who share the event footage? They are doing it already. No? Why? What is the difference again?

I've just typed out a long post them lost my connection, so I'll be brief.

Yes HoO did have a tripod at the front. You can see it on some of the vids other attendees posted.

No, I don't think that the speakers are racist, nor do I think that they spoke knowing that the footage would be uploaded to demonstrate support for HoO but that's how it is used on their channel. It doesn't amplify the women's voices, it portrays the TAs as deranged nutters (generally regarded as left-wing and they did themselves proud on the being deranged front that's for sure) and uses the content to demonstrate SFW's support for their hate filled agenda.

I'm afraid that I do think consent and women's boundaries are important and that care should be taken of women who give of themselves to contribute. I appreciate that isn't how this event was run and it makes me feel uncomfortable. Rachel Rooney's posts on Twitter have been upsetting to read.

Welcoming these individuals and groups in is dangerous, because of who they are and who they will attract to have a ruck with them. One of the protestors was found to have a bag of knives on him when he was arrested. That isn't your standard TA balaclava/stupid banners and chants/ shouting at babies tactic and the potential for these events becoming a free for all for thuggish men is alarming.

The police really do need look closer at any man who turns up at a women's event, in possession of knives.

Various police forces have been documented for expending their man-power on women's stickers and ribbons.

What happened to this knifeman?

I'm sorry, if I choose to speak at a public event, and some third party records it, because it is public, that is not something that is the responsibility of the event organizer to protect me from.

If I'm not willing to take that risk I won't speak, it's my own responsibility to decide on my own boundaries.

Yes, it's in a public park. Absolutely anyone can turn up and film, because it's in a public park. Public.

All kinds of right-wing people were there - filming, throwing smoke bombs, assaulting a black woman, shouting abuse at women, trying to drown out the voices of women and girls, shouting "fascist" at a baby.

TRAs with their extreme right-wingery are really not doing themselves any favours at the moment

I'm afraid that I do think consent and women's boundaries are important and that care should be taken of women who give of themselves to contribute.

OK but how? You've posted this sentiment several times but have so far not told us how your ideal could be achieved in an outdoor public event.

You've repeatedly used the word welcomed and encouraged but haven't provided any evidence about who has done either of those things unless ignoring now means welcoming. It's 2022 so anything is possible WRT the meanings of words. Its really disingenuous to suggest their attendance was treated positively.

One of the protestors was found to have a bag of knives on him when he was arrested. That isn't your standard TA balaclava/stupid banners and chants/ shouting at babies tactic and the potential for these events becoming a free for all for thuggish men is alarming.

And there we have it, men might behave violently so women should stop speaking. Got it.

uses the content to demonstrate SFW's support for their hate filled agenda.

Eh? I guess technology has moved on, and unlike the old film cameras that were capable of stealing someone's soul, modern digital ones have the capability of stealing someone's support.

(But only if there isn't an intervening police line?)

KJK refuses to give these men any power over her. If she is compelled to jump through hoops to keep them away or pledge her non-allegiance if they stand near her, they start to dictate what does and doesn't happen. They become the rulers of the event, as they have been this time thanks to the women who are granting them power.

KJK has said "you have no power over me" and just lets women speak. She's Sarah vanquishing Jareth at the end of Labyrinth.

Sure, any women who do still want and fear Jareth - the evil fascist boogeyman - may find such public events are not for them, but there are other private events where only approved people can film, so no support-stealing cameras are present. (Support isn't stolen when footage is copied, I guess - the bad camera has to be there in person.)

Where is the evidence that these groups were 'welcomed'?

Thuggish men have been trying to stop women speaking at these events for years. It was about 5 years ago that Maria MacLachlan was assaulted by one of those thugs at Speaker's Corner. What makes you think that violence isn't a standard TRA tactic?

Why are you more concerned about the motives of some men filming the event than you are about the violence from those who wanted to stop it happening?

Why are you more concerned about the motives of some men filming the event than you are about the violence from those who wanted to stop it happening?

Good question 🤔

No, I don't think that the speakers are racist, nor do I think that they spoke knowing that the footage would be uploaded to demonstrate support for HoO but that's how it is used on their channel. It doesn't amplify the women's voices, it portrays the TAs as deranged nutters (generally regarded as left-wing and they did themselves proud on the being deranged front that's for sure) and uses the content to demonstrate SFW's support for their hate filled agenda.

You're going to have to explain this to me. The content of the film is the speeches by various women. How do these speeches demonstrate SFW's support for their hate filled agenda? The content doesn't change when they upload it to their channel. It's still women talking about things like male violence and women's rights.

If your concern is that they also filmed the thugs disrupting the event, this is nothing to do with SFW. Are you saying that one group of men filmed another group of men trying to disrupt a women's meeting and somehow that's all the fault of the women? That it's the fault of SFW that the thugs made themselves look bad and also SFW's fault that another group of men filmed them?

HoO did have a tripod at the front. You can see it on some of the vids other attendees posted.

I have seen this mentioned numerous times now.

I used to be curious about how people knew who these people were and how did they know which tripod belonged to whom.

But alas, I realised it doesn’t matter.

What is the difference between a person standing and streaming and a group sharing the official live stream on social media or taking snippets to discuss on their own video content?

What legal measures can be taken in a public park with open access? Any?

What can organisers of any public park rally do to move people who are NOT breaking the law on?

Does limiting the attendance lessen the usefulness in helping to allow more people to become aware?

Have those saying ‘they shouldn’t be welcomed’ ever been to one? Because in smaller ones in Hyde Park people stream past all the time. And sometimes people simply stay and listen and become interested. Should they be shooed or shunned because they haven’t worn the secret colours?

So far I have seen countless accusations about ‘welcoming’ etc. No, they are not welcomed by Kellie Jay Keen if they are males. She does welcome all females. Males can, of course, and do attend. Again no one checks their thinking.

And she has said she has no idea who those men who streamed were. Yet here is another post using words to establish a link that lacks evidence.

If you are acting on your own prejudiced view of Kellie Jay Keen, please admit that and let’s move on.

I've asked several times now but I'm yet to hear a rational explanation as to why HoO broadcasting the women's speeches means that those women are now aligned with HoO, or can be seen in any way to be supporting HoO's message.

I am beginning to think that the objections to Posie's event are basically "waah why does she get to be the successful one! She's all blonde and married and not even a radical feminist!" It's really weird.

I don't know what happened to the man who was arrested (one of three arrests I think) other than he was found to have a bag with knives in it.

I would hope that he's been charged and I hope that the police keep any protestors further away at any future gatherings.

The evidence that these groups are welcomed is that they pitched up with a camera and tripod and no-one asked them not to film and that KJK is happy for footage to be on their social media.

The event was hashtagged on HoO sm in advance.

And no, I'm not saying men might behave violently so women shouldn't speak. Women speak about their experiences up and down the country every day of the week, in groups that are small and large. Like others here, I've been at events which have been aggressively protested by TAs and yes Maria MC was assaulted, other women have been shoved about etc.

Men carrying knives is completely different, surely people can see the difference?

What I'm saying is let women speak and keep them safe.

I'm focusing on this rather than the TAs as that's the topic of this thread and I have been concerned that CMK's baby screaming has had much more focus than a man carrying knives being at the event on the protestors side.

Men carrying knives is completely different, surely people can see the difference?

So is your objection really that the TRAs are escalating in their violence?

I don't understand the connection between a TRA turning up with a bag of knives and HoO filming the event. Can you explain?

I'm focusing on this rather than the TAs as that's the topic of this thread and I have been concerned that CMK's baby screaming has had much more focus than a man carrying knives being at the event on the protestors side.

Focusing on HoO filming the event is what concerns you, but you want the emphasis to be on a man with knives being on the side of the protesters. Is that right? If you want to focus on violent TRAs, why do you keep on about people who were peacefully filming the event (whatever their political views might be)? Why not start a thread about the violent TRAs?

The evidence that these groups are welcomed is that they pitched up with a camera and tripod and no-one asked them not to film and that KJK is happy for footage to be on their social media.

That's called "not being authoritarian or fascist".

I can't speak for KJK, but I do not believe I have the right to tell anyone not to film me, and they do not have the right to tell me not to film them.

This is a reciprocal arrangement that best serves the most vulnerable and least powerful.

The evidence that these groups are welcomed is that they pitched up with a camera and tripod and no-one asked them not to film and that KJK is happy for footage to be on their social media.

The event was hashtagged on HoO sm in advance.

So no. No suggestions. Just accusations.

You have not answered why a person videoing at the event is different to them sharing the live stream. And FFS! Seriously? They hashtagged the event before the day?

Do you know how social media works? No one owns a hashtag. Hashtags are hijacked all the time.

Have you not seen the TRA content under #sexnotgender?

She has said let anyone share it. She cannot stop any person. Sharing it. No one! It is shared and linked up to TRA accounts regularly.

She has also pointed out that even people she doesn’t agree with or associate with need to hear women’s voices. Are you wanted to limit that happening?

I ask again. If several feminists appeared on a panel with someone deemed not appropriate on a Tv show, are the TV stations expected to limit the audience?

Should the feminists preface everything they say with a disassociating mantra if one other panelists agrees with one point?

Do you see that this continues to seek out Kellie Jay to put unrealistic expectations on her that no other prominent feminist has to fulfill? Even those writing for ‘so called right wing’ media and doing events with people who are not good for the movement to be linked to?

If you cannot give any credible suggestions as to how KJK should do what is expected, have you seen any one giving suggestions?

Or are they all ‘tell them to leave’ (who? How are they identified? With what legal right can they be evicted?) and ‘don’t let anyone hijack a hashtag’ (yeah, good luck with that one!)

Premature post there, so thoughts not really complete.

But one more thing:

no-one asked them not to film

EXACTLY! So why single KJK out for not doing so? Hundreds of people there did not ask them not to film. You didn't ask them not to film. No TRA asked them not to film.

KJK is not the queen of the public space. Everyone present has as much right there as anyone else to tell anyone else what to do. (Ignoring the police, who do have more authority).

If people want to start bossing each other around and telling each other what to do and not , they can feel free. If the fascist police want to attend the events and start altercations with other people, then they are welcome to, as long as it doesn't end up disrupting the event even more.

Personally I think scuffles between various gang factions of camera people could be counterproductive...

Men carrying knives is completely different, surely people can see the difference?

My understanding is that the man carrying the knives stumbled out of a pub drunk and thought joining the TRA's to harass women looked like fun. His presence there was nothing to do with HoO. If the TRA's (allegedly left wing) hadn't been there he'd have had no one to join. He wasn't actually a TRA as far as I'm aware, just a different kind of arsehole.

Tell me how do you think HoO being there quite inconspicuously attracted a man armed with knives?

Quite honestly if the non violent HoO bloke is an example of his type then I'd happily see all the TRA's replaced with peaceful right wingers just so we could actually hear women speak.

But trans fascists ARE fascists, Ness, so not telling other people what to do nor putting restrictions on their freedom to be in & film in the public space and leaving them be to upload their footage wherever they please is the NEW fascism.

So as well as trying to get the police to do their job, arranging the speakers, the security, travel to and from, the placards, recording and reporting pre-event threats 'stop her by any means possible' KJK is also supposed to trawl all the right wing social media to check who is hashtagging before the event, and do a tick box questionnaire on who is there before the event and then what, womanhandle anyone with bad intentions off the public premises? Which they are fully entitled to be stood on as it is a PUBLIC SPACE?

Fucking hells bells.

I also don't get the connection between the bag of knives man and the HoO guys who were filming. There's no connection between them, surely? And no reason why KJK or anyone else should think that there was. And fuck all they could do about it anyway.

I'm so over this now. Just say you hate KJK and be done with it. No one has yet managed to come up with a rational argument as to how she's done anything wrong. You don't have to like her, but this desperate scrabbling to come up with dirt on her is shameful.

One reason I like KJK is because she is just telling the truth, plain and unvarnished. It doesn't matter who hears it, because it's just the truth.

You don't have to like KJK or go to her events, but you could at least try to be honest about it.

I don't hate KJK or anyone else for that matter.

I do strongly dislike her welcoming racist men and women into what started as a woman-centred movement though.

That's the connection - it's who these events are becoming attractive to. Thuggish, violent men. The TAs have been attracting that for years, I fail to see the value of women-centred events doing the same.

I think it's good that SFW seem to be planning to launch a political party of some sort. Put it all out there on the table and let individual women decide for themselves where they draw their own lines and boundaries.

And again. No actual suggestions. Just more ‘I wish’ when the situation is almost impossible to ‘police’ in that way.

And again, more ‘welcoming’!

Is this just like Allison Bailey saying she will work for ‘even homophobic and racist women’ and the extreme activists leaping on it to say how she is including vile women who are anti- LGB and and white supremists?