thank you from a TW

[Atarax]

Firstly apologies for posting in a woman's forum. I am transgender (male who lives as female). I wanted to thank the people here who keep me grounded and secure in who I am (not a woman, just a man who is in the wrong body and is fortunate to live in a society that lets me present, act and be accepted as a woman).
Reading threads here on safe spaces gave me the courage to use a men's changing room for the first time since transitioning - I never used woman's ones just accessible/gender neutral rooms. Not surprisingly I did not get attacked, a few curious looks and I kept myself covered in a towel.

You all keep it real and that is so important for those non extreme trans people. Don't stop the dialogue (but do keep respectful). Thanks again, just wanted to post because many (most?) of us get it.

@Somanysocks

It's a shame there's just an opening post and then no further engagement.

Yes, I noticed that too.

I'm with your dh on that, Doubletoil, whereas my dh is the one dragging himself out of bed to get the household chores done.

Nonetheless, I am still living as a woman because I am the one who has experienced what your dd has.

I'd say that your household experience is the result of the difference between female and male socialisation.

That is very possibly female socialisation JellySaurus But the thing is, I am still to hear about a TW who has that kind of female socialisation. For obvious reasons the biological experience will never be there. They will never go through menopause (which I am at the moment).

So what is “living as a woman”. Sexy clothes and makeup?

I'll join in the curious - what does "living as a woman" mean to you apart from acting like a stereotype? I'd really like to know why anyone would opt in to an oppressed group.

As datun says, transgenderism is inherently sexist. it is built on, relies on, the idea that women are like this, men are like that.

No one who thinks that is an ally to women. I mean sexism isn't a capital crime or anything, and I don't wish them ill, but they're not our friends

The Jordan Petersons of the world live in the same box by the way. They fervently believe women are like. They just think only people with female bodies can / should 'be like that'

So what is “living as a woman”.

Goddess only knows. A feeling in a man's head?

and that's why, when a man who identifies as a woman blunders in and starts a thread to tell us all what an all round good egg they are, I roll my eyes so hard I nearly pass out

This happens all the time. Posters like this appear and the minute they are asked the basic question

^What do you mean by "living as a woman"
^
they just disappear! Probably as it's unanswerable other than with the word "stereotypes".

Oh formatting fuck it. I think we are all saying the same thing

the fawning some of the women do on here to the men who do this is a bit wince inducing though

these men are not our friends

There is no new "big push". Trans women have always used women's spaces. If you weren't aware of that prior to the current moral panic, it just goes to show how little trouble they cause.

'Moral panic'? I think it started around the time blokes started tweeting shit like 'I'm a woman and if you don't think I am you can suck my dick'.

Funnily enough, women were like.....'hang on, what?!'

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

the fawning some of the women do on here to the men who do this is a bit wince inducing though

these men are not our friends

Now now. Didn't you read @Atarax's instructions to keep respectful?

Back in your box!

I think the problem is the quest for validation. It is exhausting.

Stay of if single sex spaces, dress what you like and of course let’s have great discussions about things that interests us all. I have zero problem with this.

I just don’t like to be made to validate someone else’s life choices. Or their dress sense. Or applaud a male for using the male spaces.

No woman I ever met has tried to get me to validate her as a woman. We acknowledge biological similarities and then we get on (or not). Why can’t males do the same regardless of how they present?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

the fawning some of the women do on here to the men who do this is a bit wince inducing though

these men are not our friends

Exactly.

A fox in the hen house is still a fox, even if the fox tells you that particular fox is one of the good guys.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that some men that don't even realise they are being sexist. It is, after all, something that many men are completely unaware of.

But relying on detrimental stereotypes to claim a man can live as a woman, and then asking women to respect that, on a feminist board of all places, is a bit much.

@MiladyBerserko

How do you deny someone's existence? Is it a ghost thing?

I have been wondering about this too. What do they mean, 'deny my existence'?

Is this it? -- If I think I have changed from being a man to being a woman, then I may think that what exists now, as me, is a woman. So if you point out that, no, I am a man, I may interpret what you say as you denying that I exist.

-- Of course this is a mistake. There is indeed a denial of existence going on: that is, there is a claim that something does not actually exist. But what? What is it that is being claimed does not exist? In fact, this is the very man-who-has-changed-to-a-woman that I think myself to be.

Yes, you deny the existence of that man-who-has-changed-to-a-woman. And of course you are right to do so: there just is no such thing as a human changing sex, so it is actually impossible for such a thing to exist.

So, yes, indeed you deny my existence in a sense in the sense that you deny I am ( sc. I exist as) something it is impossible to be. That is a very special we may say etiolated sense, however. Of course you can deny my existence in this sense are forced willy-nilly to do so by common-sense rules of rationality, indeed -- while still accepting (and, we hope, duly respecting) my existence as a person with all that entails ethically, morally and legally.

[tldr: Whether I am trans or not, I can have no justifiable complaints about you denying my existence as something I am not, and a fortiori as something I could not be. ]

But the whole “deny existence”, it is only withholding validation isn’t it? That is why it is exhausting. Most people don’t need constant validation

If anybody is denying another's existence via lack of validation, it's the trans ideologues who tell us that males have a better understanding of what it means to be a woman than females do. It's the people who talk about 'non-men', 'menstruators', 'cervix-havers' and 'gestational parents' that deny the existence of women.

@Doubletoilandtrouble

But the whole “deny existence”, it is only withholding validation isn’t it? That is why it is exhausting. Most people don’t need constant validation

Yes, it is denying that someone's self-description is true.

'My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings! ...'

-- 'Erh, no: you are Baruchd, who cleans the offices ...'

'Aargh! Denying my existence! Help! ...'

*Surely it's better to support people to feel ok as they are.

It rarely works. That is why we have gender identity clinics.*

Changing sex never works so rarely is still more successful. If changing sex did work I suspect the men clamouring to be women would have a swift change of heart - once they got to grips with the realities of female biology, misogyny and harassment instead of the fantasy version of women hood that is all doing each others hair and swapping makeup I suspect it would be slightly less appealing.

@BettyFilous

There is no new "big push". Trans women have always used women's spaces. If you weren't aware of that prior to the current moral panic, it just goes to show how little trouble they cause.

Once more with feeling… We noticed them. It bothered many of us and made some extremely uncomfortable or unable to use the facility. When it was vanishingly small numbers, the majority respectful, it was easier to ignore. Now we have a significant increase in chancers and inappropriate in yer face behaviour and showboating we need a rethink. It’s no longer working for women.

We noticed them.

@ScribblingPixie

Hi Atarax, I think one of the most valuable messages to get out there is that most men are ok with trans women, and aren't a threat to them. And that trans women understand the importance of single sex spaces for women and girls. I appreciate it took a bit of nerve to use male toilets or changing rooms, but I'm glad you did it and there was no drama. Every man I know would be civil, or actually indifferent. I presume most men ignore each other totally in shared spaces? Thanks for dropping by!

Yes exactly this.

@flingonaps don't apologise. I only put that perspective forward because it might help some understand that transwomen aren't Borg. I have know him since we were in our teens. He is the reason I remain permanently conflicted over the individual consequences of being as GC as I am. That he understands and has, for a few years now, changed his mind over his use of single sex female spaces, makes him as close to an ally as his dysphoria allows. That he has "lived as a woman" for the whole of his adult life makes him no more female than the Pope. But as I've known him for all of that time, he is also a lifelong friend. Allow me that cognitive dissonance, if you would!

I know the thread's moved on a bit, but I think this is a great point

Our male allies (GC men of whatever persuasion) should be campaigning for the acceptance and safety of TW in men's spaces. They could start with a sticker campaign in men's toilets 'Transwomen welcome here'
I would really like a conversation about male aggression/violence, rather than about female 'transphobia'.

sorry for not replying to all the questions - took time to read them. I have no idea what living as a woman means, it makes no sense. Apologies for the comment on passing and using shared spaces, no idea what I was thinking, it was a stupid and dangerous thing to say.

Part of being trans is dealing with the gaslighting from those who are supposed to be support networks (e.g. the "therapist" who calls me the mother of my children FFS) and that comes out in confused illogical comments I made. This is why reading the messages here help ground me and what made we want to acknowledge that in the first place. No office taken by any comment anyone made.