thank you from a TW

[Atarax]

Firstly apologies for posting in a woman's forum. I am transgender (male who lives as female). I wanted to thank the people here who keep me grounded and secure in who I am (not a woman, just a man who is in the wrong body and is fortunate to live in a society that lets me present, act and be accepted as a woman).
Reading threads here on safe spaces gave me the courage to use a men's changing room for the first time since transitioning - I never used woman's ones just accessible/gender neutral rooms. Not surprisingly I did not get attacked, a few curious looks and I kept myself covered in a towel.

You all keep it real and that is so important for those non extreme trans people. Don't stop the dialogue (but do keep respectful). Thanks again, just wanted to post because many (most?) of us get it.

It is patently obvious who are genuine trans women and are indistinguishable (clothed at any rate) from women.

No @Atarax no transwoman is undistinguishable. If a transwoman was of petite build, kept perfectly still, didn't move or speak, then maybe. But once in motion. No, never. Most (I'd say all but some quite vehemently deny it) women's senses will spot a transwoman as male as soon as they move.

This isn't new. Ask any physiotherapist, and biomechanist, any physiologist. They will be able to list all the slight differences in body build, gait etc that set even the most 'feminine' of men apart from even the most 'masculine' of women. These are the things our skeletal selves do, both axial and appendicular skeletal bones have their discrete 'tells' - and all humans can see them and know them for what they are. That's how we chose a sexual partner, after all!

I will say it again, the feminist writer Shakira was not wrong - those hips do not lie

@pickingdaisies

Well OP, it's a good thing you know what it's like around here. The pricklier responses to your post won't come as too much of a shock to you. Women need all the allies we can get, and I'd say that trans women who understand the issues are particularly important.

But this ‘ally’ is still saying that transwomen should be allowed in our spaces if they consider themselves to pass well enough.

Women need all the allies we can get, and I'd say that trans women who understand the issues are particularly important.

But we women need also to push those potential transwomen allies to see that they themselves also need to understand that there are still issues that they themselves need to be very aware of - not least that the idea of 'passing' is often a forlorn hope and that they themsleves, no matter how well meaning and empathetic, are part of that problem.

My friend, now in his 60s, has had to face this fact. He hates it, hates how age is undoing all the facial feminisation surgery he had, is making him look and feel less 'feminine'. But that is his problem, one he is working on finding his own solution to. And one thing I know his solution will not include is a belief that he has ever actually been undistinguishable from a woman or that he can use female facilities without causing the women also using them a moment of concern or fear.

That's not being nasty, horrible or even prickly. That's simply acknowledging the truth of a thing and finding an accommodation that everyone can live with - even if it is the transwoman who is left feeling less 'whole'. Because it is the transwoman who is asking a favour of women, not the other way round.

SHAKIRA SHAKIRA

Well, it is Friday.

men who start threads rather than just joining in the conversations. It makes me eye roll when Glinner does it too.

'I am not here to join in the conversation, I am here to make sure you talk about the right things (be respectful!)'

high five to the chaps who do manage to just post like a normal person.

crikey, that Shakira gif hadn't loaded when I started writing my post. that's a bit of a tough act to follow

It is, isn't it? 😆

You just have to join in.

@pickingdaisies

Well OP, it's a good thing you know what it's like around here. The pricklier responses to your post won't come as too much of a shock to you. Women need all the allies we can get, and I'd say that trans women who understand the issues are particularly important.

No, they're really not.

@SamphiretheStickerist

Women need all the allies we can get, and I'd say that trans women who understand the issues are particularly important.

But we women need also to push those potential transwomen allies to see that they themselves also need to understand that there are still issues that they themselves need to be very aware of - not least that the idea of 'passing' is often a forlorn hope and that they themsleves, no matter how well meaning and empathetic, are part of that problem.

My friend, now in his 60s, has had to face this fact. He hates it, hates how age is undoing all the facial feminisation surgery he had, is making him look and feel less 'feminine'. But that is his problem, one he is working on finding his own solution to. And one thing I know his solution will not include is a belief that he has ever actually been undistinguishable from a woman or that he can use female facilities without causing the women also using them a moment of concern or fear.

That's not being nasty, horrible or even prickly. That's simply acknowledging the truth of a thing and finding an accommodation that everyone can live with - even if it is the transwoman who is left feeling less 'whole'. Because it is the transwoman who is asking a favour of women, not the other way round.

Sorry I don’t see how a man who masquerades as a woman and calls himself “woman” can ever be an ally to women.

That very act undermines and parodies womanhood and further drives home harmful stereotypes.

@JellySaurus

Don't stop the dialogue (but do keep respectful).

Really? You couldn't leave toxic masculinity behind, could you? You still have to tell us what to do. You come here to MumsNet, one of the few OL places where dialogue is actively welcomed, and the only OL place where the discussion does not degenerate into threats and namecalling, and you tell us to be RESPECTFUL.

Oh behave! She's just a human being asking you to keep the discussion respectful for everyone. Not everything needs to be picked apart snd but everything is a war.

That is a condescending instruction.

To a forum of women.

Behave?

We always have behaved. Behaved well, that is.

We are not the ones who call names.
We are not the ones who make threats.
We are not the ones who yet to stop others talking.

We are not the ones who should be asked or reminded or instructed to keep the discussion respectful.

@JellySaurus

We always have behaved. Behaved well, that is.

We are not the ones who call names.
We are not the ones who make threats.
We are not the ones who yet to stop others talking.

We are not the ones who should be asked or reminded or instructed to keep the discussion respectful.

He should be asking the TRAs to be respectful, not us.

@JellySaurus

We always have behaved. Behaved well, that is.

We are not the ones who call names.
We are not the ones who make threats.
We are not the ones who yet to stop others talking.

We are not the ones who should be asked or reminded or instructed to keep the discussion respectful.

But she had kept it respectful. I feel it's easy to take your anger about the situation with TRAs and women's rights being attacked (which I'm angry about to may I add)!, on the individual trans woman. This individual largely agrees with our stance and hasn't been aggressive or domineering. Trans people arnt a homogeneous group.

Also women definitely haven't always behaved

OP I hope you don't think I'm having a go here, these are genuine questions. What is it that you think a woman is? How do you live as a woman? It's the point I really don't understand. Because being a woman isn't a costume, so I really don't get what it's all about.
Apologies if that sounds arsey, it really isn't meant to.

OP are they right? you still want to be referred to as a woman despite knowing and accepting you aren't one? It's not enough to be transgender?

Have I been had?

@DoubleYouOhEmAyEn

OP I hope you don't think I'm having a go here, these are genuine questions. What is it that you think a woman is? How do you live as a woman? It's the point I really don't understand. Because being a woman isn't a costume, so I really don't get what it's all about. Apologies if that sounds arsey, it really isn't meant to.

Yes. Very odd. Very little information just "male who lives as a female". That could mean transvestite. It would be very unusual for a fully gender re-assigned mtf with a GRC to out themselves by using men's spaces. Otherwise what would be the point of transitioning?

Op calls himself a TW, that seems clear enough. I'm glad he uses the appropriate facilities. If all TW were like him we'd be back to the point I was at before this all kicked off, thinking gender non conforming men had the right to present how they wanted, name themselves what they wanted and go about their lives in peace.

Our male allies (GC men of whatever persuasion) should be campaigning for the acceptance and safety of TW in men's spaces. They could start with a sticker campaign in men's toilets 'Transwomen welcome here'

Op is not saying she is a woman. She is not saying she wants access to woman only spaces. She is not asking for anything to be reworded as 'people who menstruate'. She is not asking to compete in woman only sports. It sounds to me like she just wants to get on with her life, living in a way that makes her happy.
There is a lot of sound debate here, but it's quite hard to justify the denials of transphobia when a perfectly civil poster like this gets an ear bashing just for daring to call her existence into question.

*daring to call attention to her existence, not into question!

@resuwen

Op is not saying she is a woman. She is not saying she wants access to woman only spaces. She is not asking for anything to be reworded as 'people who menstruate'. She is not asking to compete in woman only sports. It sounds to me like she just wants to get on with her life, living in a way that makes her happy. There is a lot of sound debate here, but it's quite hard to justify the denials of transphobia when a perfectly civil poster like this gets an ear bashing just for daring to call her existence into question.

Exactly!

Our arguments will lose all credibility if we become unreasonable and resort to just being angry at all trans people for the sake of it. We need to keep rational and stick to the issues and facts.

It would be very unusual for a fully gender re-assigned mtf with a GRC to out themselves by using men's spaces. Otherwise what would be the point of transitioning?

Are you suggesting that the point of transitioning is just to be able to use women-only spaces?