thank you from a TW

[Atarax]

Firstly apologies for posting in a woman's forum. I am transgender (male who lives as female). I wanted to thank the people here who keep me grounded and secure in who I am (not a woman, just a man who is in the wrong body and is fortunate to live in a society that lets me present, act and be accepted as a woman).
Reading threads here on safe spaces gave me the courage to use a men's changing room for the first time since transitioning - I never used woman's ones just accessible/gender neutral rooms. Not surprisingly I did not get attacked, a few curious looks and I kept myself covered in a towel.

You all keep it real and that is so important for those non extreme trans people. Don't stop the dialogue (but do keep respectful). Thanks again, just wanted to post because many (most?) of us get it.

I've been thinking all afternoon,and wondering what 'live as a woman' means? I suspect that I have very little in common with the majority of women on this site,but I'm still female. Both my jobs are in male dominated industries and I wear mens clothes to do this work as women's are not up to the same standard. I'm not interested in handbags,clothes,shoes makeup, soap operas,talent shows ect.Am I living as a woman? If not,what are the parameters?
This is a genuine question,and I'm asking because no one ever seems to have a definition.

@OldCrone

It would be very unusual for a fully gender re-assigned mtf with a GRC to out themselves by using men's spaces. Otherwise what would be the point of transitioning?

Are you suggesting that the point of transitioning is just to be able to use women-only spaces?

No. How am I suggesting that is the point?

@TheFnozwhowasmirage

I've been thinking all afternoon,and wondering what 'live as a woman' means? I suspect that I have very little in common with the majority of women on this site,but I'm still female. Both my jobs are in male dominated industries and I wear mens clothes to do this work as women's are not up to the same standard. I'm not interested in handbags,clothes,shoes makeup, soap operas,talent shows ect.Am I living as a woman? If not,what are the parameters? This is a genuine question,and I'm asking because no one ever seems to have a definition.

"Living as a woman" depends where you live. It's just cultural. As Amazonian tribeswoman would have a very different take on it than our European culture. But if you were to get called the wrong pronouns all the time then you might have some idea what it is like for a genuinely gender disphoric person's mental health. They also are probably confused by "live as a woman". It is just the recognition they want.

Fnoz That's what I mean really. Some days I wear feminine clothes, but mostly not. My job is neither typically masculine nor feminine. I'm the only adult in the house so I do both typically masculine and feminine jobs round the home (whatever that means really). I use a rucksack rather than a handbag. I rarely wear make up. I never wear heels. My hair is no longer than a lot of men's hair. I don't have periods.
So I don't really live 'as a woman' as far as it seems to be defined by trans identified people. And yet I am one because I have a female body.
So what does living as a woman mean? How do you do it? Is it just a load of stereotypes? In which case why do trans people think others can think of them as women? Because to me it's always just a man in a dress. No matter how 'feminine' that man looks on the outside, in my head its always a man. Who looks a bit unhappy.
Again, apologies if any of that sounds arsey. It's not meant to be, it's just what I think.

Redlake that's interesting thanks. I can imagine that would affect you, people calling you the wrong pronouns. But why blame the people? Why expect them to know what you fe on the inside? Why is there a push to surgically alter healthy bodies and put a massive strain on people's health with hormones? Surely it's better to support people to feel ok as they are. If it's a mental health issue, get mental health support, not surgery and hormones with horrendous side effects.

Surely it's better to support people to feel ok as they are.

It rarely works. That is why we have gender identity clinics. And the discussion goes around in circles.

daring to call her existence into question

I never understand this statement. It's often used but what does it mean?

I don't think anyone on this thread has said that OP doesn't exist!

It rarely works. That is why we have gender identity clinics. And the discussion goes around in circles.

Well looking at the amount of detransitioners starting to come forward, its clear that rushing down a medical pathway isn't the answer. Watchful waiting and more mental health support would be appropriate. No point saying it rarely works, when its not even tried most of the time.

It would be very unusual for a fully gender re-assigned mtf with a GRC to out themselves by using men's spaces. Otherwise what would be the point of transitioning?

Can you explain what you mean by this Redlake?

What is the point of transitioning and what does it have to do with women-only spaces?

It rarely works
The first lesson of medical school is do no harm. But medical transition is fraught with risk of serious complications. For a mental health issue that may resolve without intervention it is completely unethical.

"Living as a woman" depends where you live. It's just cultural. As Amazonian tribeswoman would have a very different take on it than our European culture.

In the UK in 2022, how is living as a woman different from living as a man?

But if you were to get called the wrong pronouns all the time then you might have some idea what it is like for a genuinely gender disphoric person's mental health. They also are probably confused by "live as a woman". It is just the recognition they want.

But you can't control other people's behaviour or perception of you. If they see a male person they will speak and act accordingly, no matter what that person declares their feelings to be. Many people will 'be kind' and call a man by a female name if that's what he wants, but you can't control what other people think of you.

Why is 'recognition' so important? If it's all about how you feel inside, that's what matters isn't it? Why care about what other people think?

@TheFnozwhowasmirage

I've been thinking all afternoon,and wondering what 'live as a woman' means? I suspect that I have very little in common with the majority of women on this site,but I'm still female. Both my jobs are in male dominated industries and I wear mens clothes to do this work as women's are not up to the same standard. I'm not interested in handbags,clothes,shoes makeup, soap operas,talent shows ect.Am I living as a woman? If not,what are the parameters? This is a genuine question,and I'm asking because no one ever seems to have a definition.

This is why I asked early on in the thread but it seems that OP doesn't want to answer.

It's a shame there's just an opening post and then no further engagement.

More or less

@Redlake

Surely it's better to support people to feel ok as they are.

It rarely works. That is why we have gender identity clinics. And the discussion goes around in circles.

I've seen this comment of 'it rarely works' before. But what is it based on?

There are a lot of similarities between gender dysphoria and the desire to have healthy limbs amputated. It has been suggested that both are neurological rather than psychological disorders, which would mean that psychological treatment may not be the answer.

Is this what you're referring to?

This is an interesting article about people who want their healthy limbs amputated.

www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/12/a-new-way-to-be-mad/304671/

But if you were to get called the wrong pronouns all the time then you might have some idea what it is like for a genuinely gender disphoric person's mental health. They also are probably confused by "live as a woman". It is just the recognition they want.

It would also show that the person needs mental help support and to learn to develop strategies for inner resilience. The chances of being 'recognised' as a woman are slim. At best it will only be someone attempting to be kind. It's never a wise strategy to rely on others, particularly total strangers, for validation and happiness. It won't work. You can't control what other people do, say or think. You can only control your own response to that.

Rheo That's very well put.

How do you deny someone's existence? Is it a ghost thing?

@resuwen

Op is not saying she is a woman. She is not saying she wants access to woman only spaces. She is not asking for anything to be reworded as 'people who menstruate'. She is not asking to compete in woman only sports. It sounds to me like she just wants to get on with her life, living in a way that makes her happy. There is a lot of sound debate here, but it's quite hard to justify the denials of transphobia when a perfectly civil poster like this gets an ear bashing just for daring to call her existence into question.

This is hardly an 'ear-bashing' or calling anyone's existence into question. I think indeed you have 'been had' *Barbarantia. OP very rapidly showed himself as directive and sadly not at all grounded as he claims these forums have helped him. The contraditions quickly appeared... He expects to 'be accepted as a woman' but accepts he is a man? He states that TW are 'indistinguishable' from women which is not the experience of most women, and disappears once politely asked how you 'act like a woman '. These appearances usually seem to end this way and it's hard not to see him as disingenuous.

Everyone is still ignoring the bit where the OP said it was fine for some transwomen to use our spaces if they thought they passed well enough….

But she had kept it respectful. I feel it's easy to take your anger about the situation with TRAs and women's rights being attacked (which I'm angry about to may I add)!, on the individual trans woman. This individual largely agrees with our stance and hasn't been aggressive or domineering.

You don't think it's domineering for a male to tell women how to talk? This person may be living in a way thinks is a woman's life, but nonetheless expresses male entitlement.

I'm not angry with the OP, more with the posters fawning over the OP. Who, beyond telling us how to talk and how navigates women's spaces, has not engaged in the discussion at all.

Argh. Trying to talk clearly while neither lying nor submitting to the language police is muddling. Last sentence should have been:

Who, beyond telling us how to talk and how males may navigate women's spaces, has not engaged in the discussion at all.

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn

Everyone is still ignoring the bit where the OP said it was fine for some transwomen to use our spaces if they thought they passed well enough….

Good point.

@TheFnozwhowasmirage

I've been thinking all afternoon,and wondering what 'live as a woman' means? I suspect that I have very little in common with the majority of women on this site,but I'm still female. Both my jobs are in male dominated industries and I wear mens clothes to do this work as women's are not up to the same standard. I'm not interested in handbags,clothes,shoes makeup, soap operas,talent shows ect.Am I living as a woman? If not,what are the parameters? This is a genuine question,and I'm asking because no one ever seems to have a definition.

The reason for this is because being a woman isn't a feeling.

A male trying to express how he feels like a woman when he isn't one, has no-where to go but stereotypes which aren't dependent on biological sex. Which, to distinguish them from 'feeling like a man', will automatically be sexist.

Try it. Try and express how women feel different to men without it having anything to do with their sex and see where it leads.

It's also the reason why many women disagree with the very concept of transgenderism, over and above the extreme harm like rapists in women's prisons and the decimation of women's sport.

See redlakes comment in response to:

"Surely it's better to support people to feel ok as they are."

It rarely works. That is why we have gender identity clinics. And the discussion goes around in circles.

It rarely works.

That's because it cant easily work while sexism exists. It relies on sexism. Redlake wants people to stop trying tho. Feminists on the other hand...

I have absolutely zero problems with gender non conforming men. Wear what you want (professional in a work space), you do you.

I am getting increasingly fed-up by all this “living as a woman”. My DD had her period start unexpectedly yesterday (she is still getting used to anticipate it) and possibly did really badly in a maths test due to horrific cramps and the stress of having blood visible on her trousers.

I have a cough and a temperature but I still need to clean up the kitchen, feed the children and clean the house. Oh and help the children with the homework later. DHs solution is to let the children grab whatever in the kitchen, let the flat be mucky and put the washing in the attic because he is feeling so poorly as well.

To me this is living as a woman. Painful biological functions and putting your children ahead of yourself. I still haven’t met a male claiming to live like a woman who does this. It all seems to be about clothes, makeup and “passing”. Never about childcare, periods, menopause and dealing with all sorts whilst dressed in what was closest to the bed. Funny that.