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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

thank you from a TW

241 replies

Atarax · 04/02/2022 11:51

Firstly apologies for posting in a woman's forum. I am transgender (male who lives as female). I wanted to thank the people here who keep me grounded and secure in who I am (not a woman, just a man who is in the wrong body and is fortunate to live in a society that lets me present, act and be accepted as a woman).
Reading threads here on safe spaces gave me the courage to use a men's changing room for the first time since transitioning - I never used woman's ones just accessible/gender neutral rooms. Not surprisingly I did not get attacked, a few curious looks and I kept myself covered in a towel.

You all keep it real and that is so important for those non extreme trans people. Don't stop the dialogue (but do keep respectful). Thanks again, just wanted to post because many (most?) of us get it.

OP posts:
lucythejuicy · 08/02/2022 22:13

@bishophaha thank you

YankeeDad · 08/02/2022 23:50

@Atarax, given that I am the father of a teenager girl, I am thankful that you avoid using the women's changing rooms and have the guts to use the men's.

Especially given what I have learned from reading mumsnet about how many problems it poses when males go into female safe spaces, I would do everything in my power to make you feel comfortable in the men's changing room, were I to find you there. I might be puzzled at first, and it might show on my face, but once I figured out what was what, I would be very grateful that you had owned your difference, resisted the likely peer pressure from TRAs to go into the ladies, and done the right thing instead, which is to go in the men's or in a gender-neutral space where available.

I also do feel, having read a few of these threads, that at least in this thread, you do sound fairly reasonable about most things and willing to listen as best you can. I hope that continues and that the totally understandable anger and frustration of many women does not put you off from continuing to listen and learn.

You spoke about wanting to present, act and be accepted as a woman. I think you understand that there are limits to what is possible in that regard, especially regarding "accepted as a women", given the inherent contradiction between full acceptance "as a woman" versus the continued existence of sex-segregated spaces and roles.

I hope that you can also understand why use of "preferred pronouns" is not an easily extended courtesy , but rather a big problem for anyone, such as myself, for whom pronouns refer to sex, not gender. I can use a person's name as a compromise, but not a preferred pronoun. For me, and I think for many others, a request to use personal pronouns based on anything other than sex feels like a request, nay a demand, to espouse gender identity ideology, and that is something I simply cannot do without betraying my own values around truth and around justice.

Truth, because sex is about biology. Justice, because people with female biology have, through all of known human history, suffered countless outrageous indignities at the hands of people that are male, in virtually all human societies, because of their female biology.

The vast, vast majority of situations in which any space, role or award has been reserved for "women" or "women and girls" are situations in which that was enacted in order to try to eliminate or reduce some of those indignities against females.

As an individual who wants all females, including my female family members, to be safe from all those indignities, I become angry when any male person demands, or simply takes, access to female-reserved spaces, roles or awards by "identifying" as a woman or as a non-male. It does not help if that specific male does not pose an immediate threat to any females: by demanding a right to access "as a woman", that male is, in effect, contributing to erosion of the right for any females to preserve any sex-based spaces or roles.

So please, don't let anyone, be it extreme TRAs or women on this forum who are fed up with TRAs, dissuade you from continuing to do the right thing. Indeed, if all transwomen were to act in a more traditionally "feminine" way by being kind, thinking of how their behaviour would make others feel, etc. then no transwomen would be applying to be CEOs of rape counselling centres, or working as police officers wanting to do strip searches of females, or getting naked in changing rooms in front of teenage girls, or demanding to have their testicles waxed by female beauticians, or demanding sex with lesbians, or applying for "women in business awards", or just being generally aggressive, loud and threatening. Just writing and remembering all of these examples makes me seethe with rage! And I am not even on the receiving end of the abuse they represent.

The paradox in all of this is that the subset of transwomen who seem to be causing most of the actual problems are very much acting as traditional males!

To the many women who have spent hours posting thoughtfully on this board, I apologise if it offends you that I have posted such a long message here. I am trying to help, not by adding anything new because these are not my experiences, but by amplifying certain messages, truths and events that you have described and experienced. I cannot unsee what you have helped me to see. Your posts have also inspired me to actively support numerous initiatives (always led by women) aiming to reintroduce facts and truth into this ongoing debate, so thank you, and please know that your time is not being wasted.

AffIt · 09/02/2022 01:16

Again with 'living as a woman' - what does that mean? I'm a woman, and I wear trousers, drive tractors, I don't have kids, I can't make scones... ?

But today I took a day's annual leave today for an MRI scan to identify areas of aggressive Stage IV endometriosis.

I've had extensive surgery in the past to attempt to deal with this, but it's come back and it's looking increasingly likely that my only way out is a radical hysterectomy.

I've yet to meet a trans women who has done this.

Oh, and 'passing'? No. Every single woman you have ever met knows in milliseconds who you are. They may have been polite enough not to comment, but thousands of years of staying safe has taught us how to recognise a man instantly.

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 09/02/2022 06:25

To the many women who have spent hours posting thoughtfully on this board, I apologise if it offends you that I have posted such a long message here.

As suggested upthread, it would be a very good thing if you, Atarax and the other males on the thread took this conversation to Dadsnet and male-dominated boards like Pistonheads.

Deliriumoftheendless · 09/02/2022 06:35

Male dominated boards is absolutely where discussions around trans issues should be going.

Anyone can post on here but men need to start stepping up and saying they’re ok with transwomen or explaining why they’re not.

I’m for third spaces, but men have to do some listening, changing, accepting. And they need to be doing it on other sites as well.

lucythejuicy · 09/02/2022 06:37

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn I believe in equality for the sexes and not putting people into boxes. That people who should be able to do what ever they want without the consent confinements of gender. Telling males to go to Pistonheads is the opposite of that. Some of you here are plain nasty

OldCrone · 09/02/2022 06:51

Why do you think it's 'nasty' to suggest that men should also be having these discussions with other men on male dominated sites?

lucythejuicy · 09/02/2022 07:02

Should I not be able to have a discussion on pistonheads then because I have a vagina?

OldCrone · 09/02/2022 07:14

@lucythejuicy

Should I not be able to have a discussion on pistonheads then because I have a vagina?
Confused
lucythejuicy · 09/02/2022 07:37

@OldCrone perhaps I am feeling a little sore after being accused of being a mysoginistic 80 year old and told to bugger off to pistonheads. It's not a very nice way to treat people just because they are male (or mistakenly believed to be)

OldCrone · 09/02/2022 07:51

I think you've misunderstood the Pistonheads comments lucy. I don't think anyone was told to 'bugger off', just that the males on here should be having those conversations with other men as well.

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 09/02/2022 07:54

[quote lucythejuicy]@OldCrone perhaps I am feeling a little sore after being accused of being a mysoginistic 80 year old and told to bugger off to pistonheads. It's not a very nice way to treat people just because they are male (or mistakenly believed to be) [/quote]
I can see why you’d feel pissed off about that.

My thought is that if blokes like Atarax and YankeeDad want to help, one very helpful thing they can do is discuss this with other men in male-dominated spaces. Which of course doesn’t mean that women can’t post on Pistonheads.

Datun · 09/02/2022 07:56

@lucythejuicy

Should I not be able to have a discussion on pistonheads then because I have a vagina?
It's not that. It's about men (however they identify) telling women here how they would accept transwomen in their spaces.

It's preaching to the choir. And easy to say.

They need to tell it to other men. Do something.

And of course that includes women. Thing is, women are doing something. Loads of them. It would be nice to see more men do it, rather than just signal agreement here.

lucythejuicy · 09/02/2022 08:12

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn thank you I am starting to feel a bit better

Needmoresleep · 09/02/2022 08:22

There is plenty of discussion of trans issue on Quora, which is pretty male dominated. Less homogeneous than MN, so people coming at the issue from a variety of angles and cultures, and though there are some good and informed GC voices, it is not GC dominated.

Sending people to piston heads sounds quite sexist.

AntsInPenzance · 09/02/2022 08:36

I have just posted this on an audio/tech forum:

So for the male posters here, would you be ok/comfortable with transwomen using the mens' changing rooms? To create an accepting space for all males regardless of how they identify or dress?

I think if male spaces felt more welcoming and safer to transwomen then there would be less pressure for women to accept males into women's spaces (especially pre-op transwomen).

Thoughts?

bishophaha · 09/02/2022 08:56

Telling ppl to post on pistonheads is a bit of a flippant way to explain that men aren't talking about this with men.
(I'm a woman and have posted on pistonheads about cars in the past! It's quite a nice forum).

Sometimes when you're new to a forum like FWR, aww people have had the same discussions for years and if it's not immediately obvious you're posting in good faith (eg the quote fail) people might be a bit flippant rather than taking the time to explain something which to them has been discussed hundreds of times before.

Not anyone's fault, and we've had the debate over and again about how "nice and welcoming " we need to be to people joining in for the first time.
I'm happy to welcome anyone as long as they're prepared to engage in good faith.

Datun · 09/02/2022 09:10

@AntsInPenzance

I have just posted this on an audio/tech forum:

So for the male posters here, would you be ok/comfortable with transwomen using the mens' changing rooms? To create an accepting space for all males regardless of how they identify or dress?

I think if male spaces felt more welcoming and safer to transwomen then there would be less pressure for women to accept males into women's spaces (especially pre-op transwomen).

Thoughts?

It's a well phrased question. I'd be interested in the answers.
Needmoresleep · 09/02/2022 09:15

One issue that does seems to promote male debate on Quora is genital preference, with men posting that whatever their starting point in terms of the overall debate, their brain struggles to compute mixed male/female signals given out by transwomen and that they will not find a transwoman sexually attractive. And do not believe they should be compelled to.

That along with some strikingly naive questions. The corker today was a transwoman asking if they would start periods after "bottom" surgery. Patiently answered, with lots of diagrams and real science, by a doctor.

YankeeDad · 09/02/2022 09:19

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn Thank you for the suggestion. I shall do that. Dadsnet did not seem to really exist when I looked for it years ago, but it comes up now as having a decent webpage.

I also posted here on the assumption that maybe some transwomen would be more likely to use the men's changing rooms, etc. if they read posts by men telling them that of course they would be welcomed there. And on the further assumption that transwomen might be more likely to read Mumsnet than to read Dadsnet.

Datun · 09/02/2022 09:43

That along with some strikingly naive questions. The corker today was a transwoman asking if they would start periods after "bottom" surgery. Patiently answered, with lots of diagrams and real science, by a doctor.

Bloody hell. It's one thing not fully grasping the female reproductive system, but it's quite another not understanding any of it when you're actually contemplating genital surgery.

Needmoresleep · 09/02/2022 10:06

Probably not allowed links to other fora, though Quora is very different to MN.

Anyway:
www.quora.com/If-I-get-an-MTF-bottom-surgery-do-I-get-a-period

Overall the debate is interesting as it is where the anime types get pushback from the more gender critical, but also get plenty of wider support you might expect on an American, and male dominated, site. The fact that there is pushback and different views is a good thing, though some of the religious opposition has me a bit [hmmm].

(I registered because DS is at a US University and though Quora stuff about his University shows up on Google, you can't read it without registering. I glance occasionally, as it is interesting to see debate evolve elsewhere, but MN is more my place.)

SamphiretheStickerist · 09/02/2022 12:05

[quote lucythejuicy]@SamphiretheStickerist wtf are you on about - my name is Lucy and I am not old enough to remember some obscure band in the 60s I am afraid. OP this board is a vipers den. Reverse [/quote]
So, when you said As a bloke, I salute and welcome you. Gender non conformity is to be celebrated you didn't mean you are a bloke?

And if you don't know Juicy Lucy then none of what I wrote applies. That cap didn't fit.

You could have just said so!

I remain confused!

OldCrone · 09/02/2022 12:33

@Apollo441

As a bloke, I salute and welcome you. Gender non conformity is to be celebrated especially as you are doing the right thing. I view that more transgender males in male spaces as a sign of a healthy society and the death of toxic masculinity. I think that the vast majoity of men feel the same and it is a mystery why TRA's aren't pushing for male acceptance.
Samphire Lucy explained in a later post that she was quoting the post above, but didn't know how to use the quote (or bold) function, so it looked as though she was saying she was a bloke.

Apollo's post was quite a lot earlier in the thread, so a lot of us thought Lucy was saying she was male.

SamphiretheStickerist · 09/02/2022 12:40

Ah! That explains that.

@lucythejuicy my apologies for all what I wrote!

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