Robin Moira White on Woman's Hour Now (Tuesday 28/9)

[WinterTrees]

Just turned on and heard this. It seems WH is really going for it this week with this issue. Making up for lost time.

Seems to be about RMW's work as a lawyer.

So just for clarification because I think my brain is about to explode. Its hare speech to call a transwoman a biological male but its good practice to call a woman a cunt vagina haver? Do I have that right?

I'm going to have to start listening to WH again, I quite like Emma Barnett

Skirt and heels. This sounds suspiciously like Robin is taking the piss out of women...

What else can you do when the only way of signalling your so called “womanhood” is with your accoutrements. Fortunately I neither need to wear a shirt nor heels to be perceived as the woman I am.

.* Its hare speech to call a transwoman a biological male *

It would depend on the context. If you say that as transwomen are biologically male they should be entitled to male screening services, that is not hate speech. If you go up to a random trans person in the street and start shouting and swearing at them that they are biologically male/female despite their presentation, then that I would suppose be classed as hate speech.

would, I suppose, be classed as hate speech.

But why do transwomen get so upset about being called a man? If they're a woman, why doesn't it matter? I'm a woman and I'd just think someone was bonkers if they screamed at me that I was a man. Being called a cervix haver or a vagina haver on the other hand....... And if someone called my daughter a vagina haver, I would be beyind furious. It's just perverted to call girls vagina havers.

So in certain contexts you can call a man a man, eg, if they're flashing their semi erect dick at you and your naked daughter in the women's Wi Spa area (despite there being a perfectly good mixed sex area), but it's not ok to call that man a man while they're actually there because that's hate speech as the man says they're trans.

You have to wait a few weeks later to be cleared of hate speech, after you and your daughter have been intimidated and made to feel very uncomfortable and threatened by a male sex predator.

All clear as mud.

I'd rather just stick to keeping penis free spaces, and if you're a TW use the mixed areas seeing as "we don't have sex segregation anymore anyway".

@CharlieParley

Gender critical beliefs CAN be protected beliefs, because anyone can believe what they want to, but are they improperly imposing it on other people? Are they making other people feel uncomfortable in the workplace?

Oh the irony...

My eyes are rolling for days at this one.

Yup. Transwomen need to learn a level of consideration towards female women that currently seems entirely absent from the thought processes of Robin MW. Meanwhile, transwomen probably need government backing in campaigning for extra mixed-sex facilities so that they can be considerate to us at less expense to themselves.

It's a very female-socialised characteristic to put the needs of others before oneself. Maybe Robin could see it as getting into the spirit of the thing?

@RobinMoiraWhite

I have listened again to the programme. Emma Barnett introduced it by saying you had written in to the programme last week. She then immediately stated that you were the co-author of "A practical Guide to Transgender Law, the only legal textbook on the subject". I inferred from this that you had mentioned the book when you contacted the programme, but this was not explicitly stated.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0010086 starts at 38 minutes

If I have misinterpreted Emma's introduction, then I of course apologise.

So in certain contexts you can call a man a man, eg, if they're flashing their semi erect dick at you and your naked daughter in the women's Wi Spa area (despite there being a perfectly good mixed sex area),

Obviously not as people RIOTED in SUPPORT of the sex offenders self identification.

Rioting on that side of the argument is not evidence of a problem but the lack of people rioting in the office or rape shelter is evidence of no problems.

No.

[quote BoreOfWhabylon]@RobinMoiraWhite

I have listened again to the programme. Emma Barnett introduced it by saying you had written in to the programme last week. She then immediately stated that you were the co-author of "A practical Guide to Transgender Law, the only legal textbook on the subject". I inferred from this that you had mentioned the book when you contacted the programme, but this was not explicitly stated.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0010086 starts at 38 minutes

If I have misinterpreted Emma's introduction, then I of course apologise.[/quote]
Kind of you, thanks.

An understandable mistake.

The book came up in the hour plus interview with the programme researcher after I had written in to mention the conflating of self-ID proposals and access to medical treatment in a question asked of the Scottish Liberal leader (last week or the week before last?).

I do think there is quite a lot of misunderstanding 'out there' and some appear to treat the law like biblical quotations - using the parts which support their position and ignoring the rest.

Some aspects of discriination law are not easy, straightforward or even certain. The old truism is that those who think the answer is simple haven't understood the question. That is certainly true in a few areas of trans law, especially in understanding what 'a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim' is (who's aim, for example) or in understanding how a trans person is to be regarded under the protected characteristic of 'sex'. Far from straightforward, that, and likely to be fact / case specific.

I would recommend a certain book ... but that would be touting, I suppose. :-)

It is pronounced hommo-sexual because it is a Greek-Latin hybrid, using the Greek ὁμός meaning same, as in same-sex attracted.

It is not derived from the Latin Homo, pronounced hoe-moe, meaning man, as in Homo Sapiens.

@HaplessHetty I'm wearing jeans (men's Levis) jumper and trainers, please could anyone tell me what toilet I should use? I also have a vagina so am doubly puzzled!!

@PegasusReturns

Skirt and heels. This sounds suspiciously like Robin is taking the piss out of women...

What else can you do when the only way of signalling your so called “womanhood” is with your accoutrements. Fortunately I neither need to wear a shirt nor heels to be perceived as the woman I am.

I never 'take the piss' out of anyone on sensitive subjects. And as I have no ambitions to be Deputy Leader of the Labour Party, I would choose my language more carefully.

But glad to see a blog I wrote over a decade ago about the difficult time that transition is, is still getting hits. I know that some trans folk find it helpful. If you take time to read the whole piece you will understand that it is about that difficult time of presenting one way on some days and another on others which many trans people experience.

Since my social transition this is not a problem I now often experience whether I am in jeans keeping the brambles at bay or dressed more formally in a court or tribunal. The only place I can remember receiving comments about my dress in the last decade has been on Mumsnet. But I thought stereotypes werent important?

I do think there is quite a lot of misunderstanding 'out there' and some appear to treat the law like biblical quotations - using the parts which support their position and ignoring the rest
😂
Yes. Yes isn't that just so....

Yes indeed, if only someone would write a book explaining it all

No, no, we don't need a book to say it all. We just need some nice man patting us on the head and telling us not to worry our pretty little head about it. They will deal with it all. (That was bitter sarcasm BTW)

But why do transwomen get so upset about being called a man?

I do wonder this as so many don't get upset. Internalised misandry? Toxic masculinity is nasty.

If you take time to read the whole piece you will understand that it is about that difficult time of presenting one way on some days and another on others which many trans people experience.

Since my social transition this is not a problem I now often experience whether I am in jeans keeping the brambles at bay or dressed more formally in a court or tribunal. The only place I can remember receiving comments about my dress in the last decade has been on Mumsnet. But I thought stereotypes werent important?

Stereotypes are important in the sense that they exist and they are damaging.

I have never seen any account from a trans person which didn't emphasise the importance of stereotypes to that person. Why are stereotypes so important to trans people?

@WarriorN

But why do transwomen get so upset about being called a man?

I do wonder this as so many don't get upset. Internalised misandry? Toxic masculinity is nasty.

Helen Joyce has an explanation, detailed in her book Trans.

From a transwoman author, Anne Lawrence:

Lawrence adds another piece to the puzzle of trans activist rage. She posits that autogynephilia’s inwardly directed nature, and the frustrations attendant on requiring others to validate your cross-sex identity, mean that the condition co-occurs with narcissistic disorders more often than would occur by chance. And narcissists often respond to minor slights with disproportionate rage.

quillette.com/2021/09/07/the-truth-about-autogynephilia/

I do think there is quite a lot of misunderstanding 'out there' and some appear to treat the law like biblical quotations - using the parts which support their position and ignoring the rest

Oh the irony...again

I said that the book featured on Woman's Hour was niche and of little general interest to women.

Just mentioning that again.

There certainly is a lot of rage on display in the worlds of many gender woo activists.

Some cold rage, some hot rage, but it's there in the pot.