Robin Moira White on Woman's Hour Now (Tuesday 28/9)

[WinterTrees]

Just turned on and heard this. It seems WH is really going for it this week with this issue. Making up for lost time.

Seems to be about RMW's work as a lawyer.

I would recommend a certain book ... but that would be touting, I suppose. :-)

Agreed, it would be.

Review of the book: legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/09/02/a-practical-guide/

RMW If you get to, say, breast screening, there may be a higher degree of nakedness so in that circumstance it may well be appropriate to say to a trans person (RMW doesn't specify if they mean a female or male trans person) they need to come at a different time, but this is the extreme end that we need to get to before implementing sex segregation.

Another perfect example of how this TW hasn't a clue about the realities of women's lives. Clearly, White thinks that the women waiting for their mammograms are milling around with their breasts exposed.

Well indeed, @JellySlice. That didn't make any kind of sense to me.

Why are stereotypes so important to trans people?

Because in the absence of (possibly yet to develop/ appear) biological cues they need to rely on accoutrements to indicate which sex/ gender they wish to be treated as/ referred to?

The Legal Feminist analysis of the book is really excellent. And of course the book was published before Maya Forstaters Appeal Court victory.

@Yoursaintlyglowofconcern

Why are stereotypes so important to trans people?

Because in the absence of (possibly yet to develop/ appear) biological cues they need to rely on accoutrements to indicate which sex/ gender they wish to be treated as/ referred to?

But if stereotypes didn't exist, would there be any trans people?

@JellySlice

RMW If you get to, say, breast screening, there may be a higher degree of nakedness so in that circumstance it may well be appropriate to say to a trans person (RMW doesn't specify if they mean a female or male trans person) they need to come at a different time, but this is the extreme end that we need to get to before implementing sex segregation.

Another perfect example of how this TW hasn't a clue about the realities of women's lives. Clearly, White thinks that the women waiting for their mammograms are milling around with their breasts exposed.

And strange that while the need for sex segregation can be grudgingly agreed in this circumstance but not in communal changing rooms where there may also be nakedness, or in a rape crisis or domestic violence centre where there is much trauma, or in a women’s prison. Or in sport where females will win nothing if forced to compete against biological males.

@Gncq

I do think there is quite a lot of misunderstanding 'out there' and some appear to treat the law like biblical quotations - using the parts which support their position and ignoring the rest 😂 Yes. Yes isn't that just so....

It’s really hard to know where to start with motes in eyes and beams in others, sometimes, isn’t it?

So many levels of obliviousness to enjoy. But am pleased we’ve got this cleared up:

So a workplace needs to be a safe place to work, everyone should be free to believe what they want to but not necessarily impose that on others

Agree! So it’d be great if we could all do that, then gender critical women won’t be in fear of losing our jobs

OldCrone

This is a good point that I have often mulled over. A little thought experiment. Imagine living in a world where everyone has to wear the same clothes regardless of sex, makeup is banned and haircuts must be a standard type for all. Jobs are done equally by both sexes and childcare is shared. The only differences between men and women in this world are based on physical sex - men are stronger and therefore at an advantage in physical work, women have the babies. What does identifying as a member of the opposite sex mean in this world?

Thanks Datun was going to offer the other explanation but didn't want to be deleted. Forgot about that excellent history if the "diagnosis" of trans.

AlwaysTawnyOwl hahaha omgosh I'd imagine all of trans Twitter falling over themselves calling you simultaneously a Marxist communist and a right wing Christian bigot...

@BessieWallisWarfield

argumentum ad homina

Time to brush up on that Latin.

An act of complete barbarism.

Are we elite and privileged for knowing about Latin declensions, though??

women waiting for their mammograms are milling around with their breasts exposed.

Maybe I went to the wrong mammogram last month then. Three women waiting passing the time discussing the weather, no exposed breasts at ALL in the waiting room.

The person doing the mammogram, which my letter from my NHS Trust assured me would be female, and they were, was then the ONLY person in the room with me while she did it.

I didn't see any other naked breasts.

And strange that while the need for sex segregation can be grudgingly agreed in this circumstance but not in communal changing rooms where there may also be nakedness, or in a rape crisis or domestic violence centre where there is much trauma, or in a women’s prison. Or in sport where females will win nothing if forced to compete against biological males.

Yes... rather a bizarre example.

I didn't see any other naked breasts.

Good lord, no. Where on earth do they get these ideas from?

@WarriorN

Thanks Datun was going to offer the other explanation but didn't want to be deleted. Forgot about that excellent history if the "diagnosis" of trans.

You're welcome.

Isn't there a whole lot of 'nothing about us without us'?

Surely the best people to advise on what bodies with vaginas want, and need, and how their services can best work for them are the bodies with vaginas.

Not bodies with penises. Why would you ask bodies with penises?

Are they superior in judgement or something? Gatekeepers and owners of the bodies with vaginas? Naturally more intelligent and logical because of the penis bit?

@SpindleWorld

Are we elite and privileged for knowing about Latin declensions, though??

Probably. I taught myself Latin as a bored thirteen year old, the child of a single mother receiving benefits. But it will categorise me as privileged none the less.

(My mother couldn't afford a tv licence and I was very bored)

@AlwaysTawnyOwl

This Perfect Day, by Ira Levin

@Datun

I didn't see any other naked breasts.

Good lord, no. Where on earth do they get these ideas from?

Porky's

See also changing rooms, locker rooms and toilets

@Datun

I didn't see any other naked breasts.

Good lord, no. Where on earth do they get these ideas from?

You know we are banned from answering that.

Sorry to go back a few pages but can I just have a bit of clarity on this bit -

An example eg a Christian nurse wanted to pray with patients who were at the end of life. It was deemed by law to not be appropriate because the patient might have different beliefs.

Is RMW saying this? And is this something RMW uses as an example of someone being discriminated against (the Christian nurse- as the patient refuses to go along with their beliefs) or is this a good use of law (ie the patient has a right to not agree with the belief system of the nurse and not have those beliefs forced on them)?

@WarriorN

Thanks Datun was going to offer the other explanation but didn't want to be deleted. Forgot about that excellent history if the "diagnosis" of trans.

That brings to mind a frequently proffered biblical quotation, "don't listen to Ray Blanchard".

That brings to mind a frequently proffered biblical quotation, "don't listen to Ray Blanchard".

Indeed. Ray Blanchard, transwidows, Ann Lawrence, Bailey, Zucker, Reddit, JKR, transgender trend, mumsnet - the list is endless.