Robin Moira White on Woman's Hour Now (Tuesday 28/9)

[WinterTrees]

Just turned on and heard this. It seems WH is really going for it this week with this issue. Making up for lost time.

Seems to be about RMW's work as a lawyer.

Breast clinics aren't so bizarre an example when it is all of a piece with transmen not wanting to be included with women in any healthcare settings is it?

I don't think any of that example was based on a need a woman had at all.

RMW used the example to state that the courts decided it was inappropriate for a Christian nurse to pray for end of life patients in case she prayed for someone who held different beliefs to her.

Essentially, you shouldn't push your beliefs onto others.

I'm still gobsmacked at the lack of introspection.

^ to 18:21Deliriumoftheendless

Another perfect example of how this TW hasn't a clue about the realities of women's lives. Clearly, White thinks that the women waiting for their mammograms are milling around with their breasts exposed.

Whilst pillow-fighting coquettishly and complimenting one another on their accessories? Am I scripting the fantasy right?

Gender critical beliefs CAN be protected beliefs, because anyone can believe what they want to, but are they improperly imposing it on other people? Are they making other people feel uncomfortable in the workplace?

From my point of view - (at times militant) atheist with a low tolerance for unscientific claims, proselytising and people insisting that I have a metaphysical entity inhabiting my body (variously called a soul, a spirit, an essence and now a gender identity), I am horrified that I cannot fight back as publicly and openly as I want to against believers in the doctrine of gender identity imposing their beliefs on my children, on my friends and family, on society and the nation.

They're doing far more than making me uncomfortable. They've long since crossed that line. The totalitarian nature of their movement terrifies me and their determination to impose their private language on the rest of us, their need to punish wrongthink and persecute thoughtcrime is offensive to me. I lived under a totalitarian regime before. I recognise the signs.

Thanks Gncq that was what it read as but I cannot fathom how “don’t push your belief system on others” fits with “TWAW”.

Good lord, no. Where on earth do they get these ideas from?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_service

They're doing far more than making me uncomfortable. They've long since crossed that line. The totalitarian nature of their movement terrifies me and their determination to impose their private language on the rest of us, their need to punish wrongthink and persecute thoughtcrime is offensive to me. I lived under a totalitarian regime before. I recognise the signs.

Wholly and completely in sympathy with this. It seems we have so many of the pre-conditions of authoritarianism with a multi stormfront of the usual dangerous conditions for such times and so few people even seem to want to be alert to this and its dangers.

But if stereotypes didn't exist, would there be any trans people?

Depends if gender (sex) identity turns out to be a real thing I suppose.

@JellySlice

RMW If you get to, say, breast screening, there may be a higher degree of nakedness so in that circumstance it may well be appropriate to say to a trans person (RMW doesn't specify if they mean a female or male trans person) they need to come at a different time, but this is the extreme end that we need to get to before implementing sex segregation.

Another perfect example of how this TW hasn't a clue about the realities of women's lives. Clearly, White thinks that the women waiting for their mammograms are milling around with their breasts exposed.

How very gracious of RMW to decree what women can and cannot have, you know what Robin how about you butt out and let women decide what women want and need otherwise you run the risk of coming across as every other misogynist male entrenched in the patriarchy.

And, no, breast screening is NOT at the extreme end of sex segregation.

@BettyFilous

Another perfect example of how this TW hasn't a clue about the realities of women's lives. Clearly, White thinks that the women waiting for their mammograms are milling around with their breasts exposed.

Whilst pillow-fighting coquettishly and complimenting one another on their accessories? Am I scripting the fantasy right?

Lining up in order of breast size to see who has the highest status, I expect.

@BettyFilous

Another perfect example of how this TW hasn't a clue about the realities of women's lives. Clearly, White thinks that the women waiting for their mammograms are milling around with their breasts exposed.

Whilst pillow-fighting coquettishly and complimenting one another on their accessories? Am I scripting the fantasy right?

I wouldn't know. Absolutely nothing about mammograms enters any of my fantasies.

@Yoursaintlyglowofconcern

But if stereotypes didn't exist, would there be any trans people?

Depends if gender (sex) identity turns out to be a real thing I suppose.

Dr Ray Blanchard commented on something similar to that in a newspaper article here.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3815501-Conservative-Men-in-Conservative-Dresses-2002-article?msgid=93717662#93717662

"I've had people say to me, 'you know, I bet if there wasn't all this stereotyping, these people would not choose to wear a dress.' I say that's nonsense. Cross-dressing is an attempt to resolve an internal conflict, and it's not about fabric. If we had clothing for men and women that was identical in every way, except men wore shirts with four buttons had shirts with five, cross-dressers would want more than anything to have the shirt with five. We don't know why."

You can read it in full in the link.

Is RMW is the one who keeps popping up to say there are no such things as sex-based legal rights? Which is pretty bizarre when the EA contains legislation pertaining to the protected characteristic of sex, as well as there being maternity legislation etc. It doesn't inspire much confidence in them.

If an adult looks male & has a male voice I have no choice but to know they are male, no matter what they are wearing. That’s not a belief that’s knowledge.

Not directed at anyone in particular just a general observation

@Alltheprettyseahorses

Is RMW is the one who keeps popping up to say there are no such things as sex-based legal rights? Which is pretty bizarre when the EA contains legislation pertaining to the protected characteristic of sex, as well as there being maternity legislation etc. It doesn't inspire much confidence in them.

We have been told quite clearly that it's to be expected that no body/person knows what it actually means.

It means what ever the expensive lawyer tells you it means in any moment at any place or time with any configuration of any or all genders, with or without clothes or whether they're taking them off or putting them back on again, and even then if it's in a naked jacuzzi and you ask if it was okay, there will be a RIOT as a result, especially if a sex offender was misgendered.

Hope that clarifies the situation.

An act of complete barbarism

And now who's aim.

Working as a legal practitioner requires precision and accuracy. I am wondering if there are other areas where this person's accuracy is not a strong point.

Oh I don't know. That linguistic homicide was committed with precision and accuracy!

Yes, I do think I'm funny, thank you for asking.

I've had people say to me, 'you know, I bet if there wasn't all this stereotyping, these people would not choose to wear a dress.' I say that's nonsense. Cross-dressing is an attempt to resolve an internal conflict, and it's not about fabric.

Blanchard has a massive blind spot when it comes to autogynephile misogyny, and, one has to presume, with regard to misogyny in general. So I wouldn’t take his word on this uncritically. He thinks that the autogynephilic “internal conflict” doesn’t arise from stereotypes, doesn’t arise from misogyny… what does it arise from? He doesn’t know.

It seems transparent that AGP eroticising the social signifiers of womanhood is downstream from their eroticising insulting, misogynistic male stereotypes of womanhood. That’s evident in forums where autogynephilic males talk to each other. The signifiers of femaleness in this context are like a slave collar in a BDSM fetish, they’re a symbol of the eroticised humiliation and degraded status of the wearer.

(Obviously not talking about transwomen in general or anyone in particular, as I’ve tried to make clear with my wording! Just about Blanchard and autogynephilia generally.)

If we had clothing for men and women that was identical in every way, except men wore shirts with four buttons had shirts with five, cross-dressers would want more than anything to have the shirt with five. We don't know why."

So he's answering the question "if things weren't coded feminine or masculine, would we still have crossdressers?" by saying "if we have just one thing coded feminine or masculine, crossdressers would still want the feminine-coded thing."

How does that in any way shape or form address the question properly?

How can you refute the idea that if we didn't have X, then people would not do Y by saying even if all we have is a tiny little bit of X, then people would still do Y.

Well, yeah, they would. We're asking if we have no X, not even a tiny remnant, what would you attach that paraphilia to?

I guess the female reproductive system and the roles and abilities arising from them. But you'd have no way to emulate them in a way that would signal your cross-sex identity to others. Unless you were full on pretending to be pregnant. Which would rightly elicit mental health concerns, as it does when women pretend to be pregnant.

We're asking if we have no X, not even a tiny remnant, what would you attach that paraphilia to?

Breasts?

Or is it that there are always people who want what someone else has, and there are always people who are turned on by violating taboos and conventions?

It seems that male persons have the belief that female persons spend a lot more time either in underwear or naked together than we ever do
I blame bad films where there is often a group of young women half dressed, giggling together, perhaps rolling on the bed, whilst getting ready to go put
Jessica Yaniv seemed to thing young teens would be wandering about starters
A male will never experience being in a group of females but I fear it would never live up to their expectations anyway

Starkerz