Robin Moira White on Woman's Hour Now (Tuesday 28/9)

[WinterTrees]

Just turned on and heard this. It seems WH is really going for it this week with this issue. Making up for lost time.

Seems to be about RMW's work as a lawyer.

Starkers

@WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld

Starkers

Is this a new gender?

Yeah, I remember seeing a middle aged trans woman on social media talking about how when they transitioned they could experience the “girlhood” that they “had been denied”; and the idea of this girlhood seemed to be like a cross between a Katy Perry video and the “virginal Sandy” song in Grease, all giggly sleepovers trying on makeup, talking about sex, comparing breast sizes and practising kissing on each other.

There was no awareness whatsoever that real teenage girls don’t even have “girlhoods” like that - nor that these were all images made up by films and TV. Even less awareness of the fact that most teenage girls have a difficult time going through puberty, what with body insecurities, changing friendships, school pressures, and so on. An episode of Blossom it is not.

But no, this person was convinced there was a whole fluffy porny schoolgirl experience they were missing out on and could now enjoy. 🤷‍♀️

Also on this theme, India Willoughby on celebrity big brother, drying their hair with their top off, chest exposed for all to see, as if women do that all the time when it's all girls together (and there are TV cameras there.)

A classic of the genre.

But no, this person was convinced there was a whole fluffy porny schoolgirl experience they were missing out on and could now enjoy.

I'm sure they can, if they're ok with enjoying it with other adult males.

@JellySlice

RMW If you get to, say, breast screening, there may be a higher degree of nakedness so in that circumstance it may well be appropriate to say to a trans person (RMW doesn't specify if they mean a female or male trans person) they need to come at a different time, but this is the extreme end that we need to get to before implementing sex segregation.

Another perfect example of how this TW hasn't a clue about the realities of women's lives. Clearly, White thinks that the women waiting for their mammograms are milling around with their breasts exposed.

Also doesn't have a clue about breast cancer.

Men can get it too. Male men.

DH had a lump and I went with him. Clinic v efficient. Consultant> mammogram> ultrasound > back to consultant for results and any next steps.

When we went for the diagnostic tests. They asked him to sit in a currently empty room off the waiting room.

And that was fine obv.

The fact that RMW is unaware that breast cancer can occur in males.

Means using that example demonstrates a lack of knowledge on the topic they decided to use as an example.

Oopsy.

Its an interesting point you make. I have a friend who works at a breast screening clinic and she was telling me about the noticable difference between when men and transwomen turn up for appointments. Men tend to be very quiet sit in the corner and generally seem very awkward about being there, whereas the transwomen are much more assertive, almost like its a validation for them.

I thought it was a really interesting observation.

Thought RMW was a man when I heard the voice in the radio.

I wonder why I thought that.

I never wear skirts or heels, does this mean I should be using the gents toilets?

I wear skirts but not heels, do I just pee in the street?

@OnlyTheLangOfTheTitberg

I never wear skirts or heels, does this mean I should be using the gents toilets?

I wear skirts but not heels, do I just pee in the street?

We'll all be peeing in the street when the 'ladies' is no longer.

That is certainly true in a few areas of trans law,

?????

@Leafstamp

Thought RMW was a man when I heard the voice in the radio.

I wonder why I thought that.

An understandable mistake.

But then, puberty-blockers weren’t available when I had to endure male puberty.

There are alternatives for voice box feminisation that don't involve experimenting on minors with off-label drugs 🤷🏻‍♀️

Magic anti-sex based oppression pills weren't available when I had to endure female puberty. So here we are, eh?

@WomaninBoots

Magic anti-sex based oppression pills weren't available when I had to endure female puberty. So here we are, eh?

They don't even seem to work.

It's weird which voices seem to dominate in trans spaces. Clue: it's not the voices of the ones born female.

Absolutely, woman. Wish they’d get a shift on inventing those.

I want some of those pills WomaninBoots!

@WomaninBoots

Magic anti-sex based oppression pills weren't available when I had to endure female puberty. So here we are, eh?

Did you see the interview with Jane Clare Jones where they discussed puberty and the awareness of sex. I paraphrase but she said something like, "For the first five minutes, I thought, this is nice. And then it became terrifying" (she described being followed, shoved up against walls etc. - you know).

I have no knowledge of your background and whether you have children or not Robin, but are you actually saying that you think that giving children drugs which may render them infertile and compromise future sexual fulfillment is a good idea.

Yeah I think sexual assault of some form is almost universal for girls through and post puberty. There was no narrative to understand it with in the 90s/00s. We all internalised the shame as our own fault. I really hoped that young girls currently would be more educated about male pattern violence. But it seems to go hand in hand with identity so if you don't want to be objectified /groped /raped you should at least be non binary. Which really seems another way of saying the girls that do get objectified /groped/raped wanted it or deserved it.

Yup re female puberty = harassment by males out of fucking nowhere. And I'm afraid I'm struggling to drum up enough sympathy to cry into my morning coffee for someone complaining about "enduring male puberty" no matter how dysphoric they claim to be in later life. Sorry duck, but it doesn't fly for me.

I've not really checked in with the rest of the thread so apologies for the derail but that comment needed a sense check in my view.

Plus the implication that we should by poisoning young people with cross sex hormones that damage fertility, sexual function AND long term health because people who have lived a life with those things enact want to live vicariously through damaged young people?

No thank you.

by = be
enact = intact

Gabbi Alon Tuft (formerly known as the wrestler Tyler Reks- t. rex geddit?!?!?) has come out in favour of childhood transition, and made vague comments about wishing that they'd had that opportunity themselves.

But Gabbi didn't. Gabbi went through puberty, and presumably developed full fertility and sexual function. Also had a career based on being as strong as an ox. Now Gabbi has a daughter and Gabbi poses with her on social media a lot, actually. The exact opportunities children childhood transitioners won't have.

Exactly purgatory

And the transitioning stories are always about non acceptance, abuse, trauma inflicted by homophobic and sexist adults and peers in the person's childhood. I have a lot of sympathy. But the answer for today's young people is surely stop the homophobic and sexist adults and peers? So they won't need to transition? Otherwise it just implies medical transition is a fashion choice.

It's like me saying that in order to get my ptsd better understood by society, all young people should experience what I did so they can have ptsd too and then society will be better to us?

the answer for today's young people is surely stop the homophobic and sexist adults and peers?

Yes. And, in the interim, appropriate emotional and psychological support.

I've written elsewhere that sexual abuse and assaults in schools have been a problem for decades and yet we're still victim-blaming little girls and exculpating with 'boys will be boys'.

Bullying and abuse are social 'wicked' problems. Medical interventions to deflect that sometimes feels like using an aggressive medical model to resolve these social and cultural problems. I have no optimism that such interventions are durable resolutions.