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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Robin Moira White on Woman's Hour Now (Tuesday 28/9)

204 replies

WinterTrees · 28/09/2021 10:42

Just turned on and heard this. It seems WH is really going for it this week with this issue. Making up for lost time.

Seems to be about RMW's work as a lawyer.

OP posts:
Franca123 · 28/09/2021 12:27

Robin is unable to empathise with women who feel uncomfortable changing or using the loos in front of men. The argument is essentially, I want this thing and I will have it and I don't care how anyone else feels about it.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 28/09/2021 12:29

Robins book was published before the Maya Forstater appeal verdict which makes it out of date.

SpindleWorld · 28/09/2021 12:31

@CharlieParley

'argumentum ad homina'

Are we doing bad Latin now?

Reminds me of Monty Python and the Biggus Dickus scene. Michael Palin was excellent keeping a straight face for that.
BaronMunchausen · 28/09/2021 12:32

@OldCrone

Single female sex spaces are designed to ensure the safety, privacy and dignity of a disadvantaged group and in so doing include them in society.

According to what Robin wrote on Robin's blog, Robin seems to think that the women's toilets are for people wearing 'skirts and heels' (perhaps taking the sign on the door a little too literally).

I rushed down to our local supermarket. While I was there I decided that I needed to use 'the facilities'. I was off down the corridor behind the cigarette kiosk and then I had to comee to a shuddering STOP to remember whether I should be using the ladies or the gents. Check: skirt and heels - ladies!

Skirt and heels. This sounds suspiciously like Robin is taking the piss out of women...
Franca123 · 28/09/2021 12:34

I've had a comment deleted! I would like to explain that the person in question is called Robin (I know this can be a female name but I've only ever met men with this name) and didn't sound very much like a woman on the radio....... How am I meant to know I was using the wrong blimin pronouns. This situation is beyond ridiculous.

BaronMunchausen · 28/09/2021 12:37

Strangely enough, I didnt do that and she didnt say that. But dont let the facts stand in the way of a good 'argumentum ad homina' slur...

Perhaps you want to put heels and a skirt on 'homo', but it is a masculine noun, the accusative is hominem.

Homines in the plural.

Gncq · 28/09/2021 12:38

I had some time... I listened. Here is a brief summary of today's WH...

Starts with an interesting interview with music journo Jaquelin Springer about peodophile R Kelly who is currently facing life in prison, about why it is particular demographics of women and girls are ignored, eg black girls, young ambitious talented girls in the music industry. The narrative goes "because you dance provocatively, dress provocatively, you brought it on yourself" but the truth lies closer to the music industry basically being a massive grooming program.
We need society to change so that men like that become scared of behaving in that way, there need to be consequences for these men, but instead they're enabled and protected.

EB takes messages on How pandemic has affected women, eg WFH being a benefit and going back to office not preferred, the job of a midwife is now virtually impossible, immense pressure... Commuting can cost a fortune, mental health and productivity has increased for some since WFH, not everyone has this option so for them pandemic has made things much harder...

Next really good and interesting chat with Indra Nooyi former CEO of PepsiCo, who's book is titled "my life in full work, family and the future".
Her mum was really sexist in my opinion! Would tell her "when you walk through the door you're a mum and wife, you leave your crown at the door". She basically didn't care about her daughter's exceptional career, but it's all talked about with great humour and practicality.

She lived in a multi generation family, so got lots of help, various relatives could step up if she needed to do long hours etc. Recognises not everyone has/had that luxury. Multi generation homes are not necessarily a feminist issue, more an economical one. They can benefit whole generations, like a network or structure. She doesn't understand why caring work in the west is viewed as "female" work. It's family work. Families have children not women. Women give birth and need time to recover, but families raise children in her view.

Oh my gosh they've followed this lovely interview with an absolutely terrible piece of music, total rubbish sorry this is my opinion but I'm fast forwarding past this interview because it's obviously supposed to be for the younger audience. Lots of giggling etc...

Robin Moiran White is up next who wrote "A practical guide to transgender law" who is up for 2 industry in law awards since transitioning in 2011.
Known to be the go-to-lawyer for trans cases.
Applauds the 2010 act because it removed the need for a medical pathway to be recognised as trans.

Question from EB:
What examples do you have of how trans people are discriminated against?
RMW A non binary person once felt they had to resign from their job because they were treated differently after declaring themself non-binary.
Society expects people to fit into boxes (!)
There are a small minority who don't fit the norm. (Colour me shocked!)
Trans cases tend to make the headlines.

Question from EB about TW in W spaces including toilets
RMW Despite training for years as a lawyer, I do tend to end up giving a lot of advice about "ugh" toilets.

RMW We simply don't have segregation anymore. There are very few places that have sex segregation, I mean we used to have racial segregation we all moved on.

EB pushes a bit for examples of when it might be ok to implement sex segregation...

RMW If you get to, say, breast screening, there may be a higher degree of nakedness so in that circumstance it may well be appropriate to say to a trans person (RMW doesn't specify if they mean a female or male trans person) they need to come at a different time, but this is the extreme end that we need to get to before implementing sex segregation.

RMW I take it as a matter of pride that people on this spectrum of belief can come to me for matters of legal advice.
(^Very interesting turn of phrase there).

On self ID
RMW Self ID has been allowed since 2010 in employment, education, public life.

EB: Do you think some people feel this area of law is moving a bit faster than many people are comfortable with?

RMW Discrimination tends to be like this, I remember the struggles gay people had to be accepted and people were uncomfortable with that too. When we make change some people will be unhappy.

EB: Are you comfortable with a 16 year old potentially having (sex change) surgery?

RMW I would have transitioned in my 20's. There's no definitive answer. The court of appeal has recently decided that the right people to decide that are the people who know the trans individual best. (Keira Bell/Tavistock case)
The law has decided that sex change surgery will vary from person to person.

EB: Do you agree or disagree with the statement "someone who identifies as a different sex is not actually of a different sex"? This is quoted from Baroness someone sorry I didn't catch who, who's duty it is to uphold the equality act.

RMW: She's never actually stated the law. You need to look at the implementation of a particular believe that you hold let's look at work. Most people don't have a choice whether they work or not. So a workplace needs to be a safe place to work, everyone should be free to believe what they want to but not necessarily impose that on others.
(Wow the irony!)
An example eg a Christian nurse wanted to pray with patients who were at the end of life. It was deemed by law to not be appropriate because the patient might have different beliefs.

EB: Does calling a transwoman a biological male constitute hate speech?

RMW.
It can do.
Eg "only women have cervixes" can be a way of saying transwomen are not women but in a different way, and that can be very threatening, but it depends on context. So you need to look at why are those words being used?

RMW Gender critical beliefs CAN be protected beliefs, because anyone can believe what they want to, but are they improperly imposing it on other people? Are they making other people feel uncomfortable in the workplace?

Me: err, yeah so is your belief that men can be women making anyone feel uncomfortable? Unsafe? Are you imposing it on anyone?

BaronMunchausen · 28/09/2021 12:39

@Franca123

I've had a comment deleted! I would like to explain that the person in question is called Robin (I know this can be a female name but I've only ever met men with this name) and didn't sound very much like a woman on the radio....... How am I meant to know I was using the wrong blimin pronouns. This situation is beyond ridiculous.
It's pretty much impossible: there's far too much research and memory involved if we don't go by time-honoured cues.

And anyway, I thought they were preferred rather than compulsory?

foxgoosefinch · 28/09/2021 12:39

“ad femina” surely, Robin….?

Franca123 · 28/09/2021 12:42

BaronMunchausen it does make it seem that it's actually about controlling people's speech doesn't it.

BaronMunchausen · 28/09/2021 12:43

It's probably easier just to refer to someone repeatedly by their first name.

The Wikipedia entry for Marsha P Johnson does this. Johnson was a self-declared gay man who often wore women's clothes, but because TRAs have claimed him as a TW, the entry hedges its bets.

Franca123 · 28/09/2021 12:47

What a fucking nightmare. Who are all these people policing people's natural language? And have they read 1984?

CharlieParley · 28/09/2021 12:49

@foxgoosefinch

“ad femina” surely, Robin….?
Only if the attack is on the basis of being a woman (like asking if it's your time of the month to imply you're hormonally imbalanced i.e. irrational).

And even then it is ad feminam because ad requires the Accusative ending.

CatsOperatingInGangs · 28/09/2021 12:50

I rushed down to our local supermarket. While I was there I decided that I needed to use 'the facilities'. I was off down the corridor behind the cigarette kiosk and then I had to comee to a shuddering STOP to remember whether I should be using the ladies or the gents. Check: skirt and heels - ladies!

I can’t even begin to start on how offensive this is.

Franca123 · 28/09/2021 12:52

Yeah, as a woman, I always hope that a man rubs up against me when I'm doing the weekly shop. It's a fundamental part of my woman hood.

334bu · 28/09/2021 12:58

Yes the language is deliberately confusing . Often it is not clear what is the biological sex of the person or group being discussed . Perhaps we should be more specific and say a biologically male/ female person with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. In this way there is no confusion that when discussing female only spaces, in this context, we are talking about making these spaces mixed sex.

CharlieParley · 28/09/2021 13:02

Gender critical beliefs CAN be protected beliefs, because anyone can believe what they want to, but are they improperly imposing it on other people? Are they making other people feel uncomfortable in the workplace?

Oh the irony...

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 28/09/2021 13:07

@CatsOperatingInGangs

I rushed down to our local supermarket. While I was there I decided that I needed to use 'the facilities'. I was off down the corridor behind the cigarette kiosk and then I had to comee to a shuddering STOP to remember whether I should be using the ladies or the gents. Check: skirt and heels - ladies!

I can’t even begin to start on how offensive this is.

Yes, well. The next part goes:

I came to such a sudden stop that the poor chap behind me made intimate contact with me from behind (I wish) but he was very nice about it. I didnt offer a complete explanation. It had me chuckling to myself for days...

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 28/09/2021 13:07

@CatsOperatingInGangs

I rushed down to our local supermarket. While I was there I decided that I needed to use 'the facilities'. I was off down the corridor behind the cigarette kiosk and then I had to comee to a shuddering STOP to remember whether I should be using the ladies or the gents. Check: skirt and heels - ladies!

I can’t even begin to start on how offensive this is.

Indeed.

See Maya Angelou for a mind-cleanser on a Phenomenal Woman

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4359887-Maya-Angelou-Reading-Phenomenal-Woman

MistandMud · 28/09/2021 13:08

Saying women have cervices can be threatening?

Oh good, Robin, you utter wet nelly.

CharlieParley · 28/09/2021 13:09

@334bu

Yes the language is deliberately confusing . Often it is not clear what is the biological sex of the person or group being discussed . Perhaps we should be more specific and say a biologically male/ female person with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. In this way there is no confusion that when discussing female only spaces, in this context, we are talking about making these spaces mixed sex.
That, or "men/women with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment". It is the legally correct terminology, with men/women referring to males and females respectively. Obviously we cannot always precede comments with our definitions, and I don't know whether this would comply with MN moderation rules. But when cases around this issue are argued in court, that's the terminology.

Bit of a long phrase, there's not even a good way to abbreviate it (MWTPCOGR?)(MeWiTProtCharOGRe?). Doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.

Whitefire · 28/09/2021 13:11

Toilet signs of just people are really poor for anyone with processing difficulties (autism, dementia etc).

Fitt · 28/09/2021 13:16

Robin commented that there haven't been riots in the work place since self ID at work became legal.

Followed by a long discussion about how circumstances dictate when beliefs and words are discrimination.

The gap between discrimination from beliefs or words and workplace riots is apparently the space in which consent is assumed.

If we are not rioting in a workplace where a word out of place could be hate speech then apparently we are all totally accepting and in agreement.

No.

lanadelgrey · 28/09/2021 13:22

The bit about trans men and breast screening was v useful … here the privacy and dignity of the patient allows the EA caveats were allowable in the speaker’s view but EB didn’t ask about whether they would apply in regard to a trans woman radiographer and a patient who wanted to be treated by someone of the same sex

334bu · 28/09/2021 13:22

Thank you Charley. Obviously using the commonly accepted nouns for the male/ human person instead of a long winded phrase would be easier but as you say , although legally correct it might not fit in MN guidelines. Copy and paste may come in useful.