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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

How to challenge "trans people are born trans"?

198 replies

howtocomplain · 13/05/2021 07:33

DS is being taught in school that everyone has a gender identity and trans people are born trans and that identifying as transgender "is not a phase", by Allsorts, who have been invited in to do assemblies.

I'm mindful of the government guidance that external agencies must provide content that's evidence-based, and this stuff is plainly nonsense.

Can anyone help me explain this to the school?

Can anyone point me to the source 80% of kids desisting stat? I've heard it loads but it'd be great to have a source.

And anything else that shows that children change their minds about this, or that there are a number of reasons kids may be confused about their sex?

Also, does anyone know where I could find something evidence-based, or written by experts, on social contagion?

Thanks :)

OP posts:
Imasoulman · 14/05/2021 22:24

@PoleToPole

Sorry to derail but I wanted to thank *@Imasoulman* for engaging and their honesty. I would also like to ask a question, if I may? You said this:

For me the acceptance and confirmation from other women was and still is the holy grail

I have often heard this from trans women, but why is it so important? Why are other peoples opinions that important? I sincerely apologise if this offends, I dont mean to but I have often wondered.

Its the validation really. If other women believe in me, accept me and offer that confirmation through friendship then it makes me feel validated in myself, it makes me feel that I am considered genuine. Being "one of the girls" is something we all want
Imasoulman · 14/05/2021 22:27

@FindTheTruth

Why are other peoples` opinions that important?

living your life based on the opinions of others and believing that external validation from others will make you happy, makes for an unhappy and restricted life.

Being Trans makes for an unhappy and restricted life
midgedude · 14/05/2021 22:29

Being one of the girls is not something all women want

Imasoulman · 14/05/2021 22:38

@Italiangreyhound

OP well done for challenging this in your son's school.

I think 'gender' is so badly understood and despite talking to a few trans people, or reading up on it, I cannot understand this idea of an innate gender identity. H

How can it be anything other than stereotypes.

My own observations are that many people seem to have a sex dysphoria rather than gender dysphoria. They are unhappy with having breasts or whatever. The clothing is used to hide what they feel they should not have (in natal girls).

@Imasoulman thank you fur engaging so openly, I am sure it is not easy. "The happiest, healthiest and most balanced I have ever been were during the years that I could present as female."

This is a personal question (feel free nit to answer) - are you still able to present as a woman or has something. Changed?

Like PoleToPole I am interested to know why acceptance by women is a holy grail. The trans person in my family is a young trans man and the acceptance of young men dies not seem to figure much for him. Neither way is a criticism, of him or you, just curious to me. I would like to understand. Feel free bit to answer. Or pm me. Thank you.

I can no longer present convincingly. Not having access to appropriate treatment at an appropriate age meant that eventually my body changed and I went from passing without a problem to the point where it was just impossible. Mother nature was not kind to me.
EwwSprouts · 14/05/2021 22:39

.

Imasoulman · 14/05/2021 22:40

@midgedude

Being one of the girls is not something all women want
When I said "we" I meant Trans Women
Jillly · 14/05/2021 22:42

"For me the acceptance and confirmation from other women was and still is the holy grail"
I dont even know what this means really.
As a woman I dont need other women to confirm that, I know I am one and men confirm it often enough when they intimidate, talk over and invade my personal space and time.
Not all women do accept me, I've no idea what another woman 'confirming' me or my 'identity' would even look like.

Jillly · 14/05/2021 22:45

I am genuine, that's sometimes the reason women or men dont like or accept me.
I could accept you and be friends with you without believing you're a woman.
Is that bad?

BlackForestCake · 14/05/2021 22:56

I'm not sure that it's true that 'Most women do enjoy fashion, make up etc'. It's not the case in the women I know, but I haven't done a proper survey, and I suspect neither have you.

If we accepted for the sake of argument that it were true, that still wouldn't be what made them women.

PoleToPole · 14/05/2021 23:09

Its the validation really.
If other women believe in me, accept me and offer that confirmation through friendship then it makes me feel validated in myself, it makes me feel that I am considered genuine.
Being "one of the girls" is something we all want

Thank you for answering, I appreciate it, and Im sorry you arent happy in your life, that is tremendously sad Flowers.

Why the need for validation from other people? Isnt it enough that youre you? By that I mean accepting yourself as a transwoman, not being forced to deny that obviously. If you genuinely love and accept yourself, the external validation is unnecessary and irrelevant, and if you do not, relying on external validation is never going to help in the long run.
Learning not to give a fuck what other people think is a very useful life skill, I have found, and comes in handy much more often than it should.

Shouldn`t there be more focus on building a strong core of self esteem in young people, regardless of whether they are trans or not?

midgedude · 14/05/2021 23:23

Ah, understanding now thanks

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 14/05/2021 23:25

Imasoulman can I ask if you’ve had therapy/how much, if so?

midgedude · 14/05/2021 23:27

Although that makes me think About my experience growing up, wanting to be accepted as one of the boys, rather than being dismissed as a bubble head

The problem I realise was with those who refused to listen to me , those who could not take me seriously because of my sex. The problem was not me, not my sex , it was narrow minded bigots

Italiangreyhound · 14/05/2021 23:52

@imasoulman "Mother nature was not kind to me."

I'm very sorry to hear that.

RedDogsBeg · 15/05/2021 01:03

Its the validation really.
If other women believe in me, accept me and offer that confirmation through friendship then it makes me feel validated in myself, it makes me feel that I am considered genuine.
Being "one of the girls" is something we all want

I'm struggling with the considered genuine part of your comment. Do you mean believing you are a women just like them?

Prizing validation so highly is not a healthy way to live.

NotBadConsidering · 15/05/2021 01:11

Seeking validation in day to day life is one thing, legislating and enforcing validation in law, for prisons, or in rules for sport participation etc is another thing entirely. When a transwoman is validated in women’s sport, a woman or several women lose out and are disadvantaged. When a transwoman has been validated as a woman and been sent to a women’s prison, women have been sexually assaulted.

JustSomeDude123 · 15/05/2021 01:33

just going off the title. trans people arent born trans, its a result of how you were raised and so many other factors.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 15/05/2021 08:51

@JustSomeDude123

just going off the title. trans people arent born trans, its a result of how you were raised and so many other factors.
You keep ‘just going off the title’

Why do you think anyone is going to be interested in your posts if you aren’t interested in theirs

FindTheTruth · 15/05/2021 11:56

does anyone know where I could find something evidence-based, or written by experts, on social contagion?

OP here's a 44 page research paper by Brown University. Parent reports of adolescents and young adults perceived to show signs of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria

FindTheTruth · 15/05/2021 12:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Imasoulman · 15/05/2021 12:28

@JustSomeDude123

just going off the title. trans people arent born trans, its a result of how you were raised and so many other factors.

Sorry this is just not true, Trans people are born Trans.

If it was down to how you were raised then I would be a cigar smoking macho rambo style bully.

midgedude · 15/05/2021 12:34

I guess what is being implied is that because you aren't a cigar smoking macho person and your local society ( ie the people who influenced you most as a youngster ) expects that of its men, that's what made you trans.

Because you can't live as yourself within the external constraints placed upon you

Billi77 · 15/05/2021 12:35

You could always just let people be themselves rather than challenging them like you know who they are better than they do? It’s not an easy ride having dysphoria, even without the bullying.

midgedude · 15/05/2021 12:46

It's not easy having dysmorphia , I know

But personally I think I will live a longer healthier and happier life because I have been able to come to terms with my body , I have been able to understand that there isn't actually anything wrong or special with me after all .

Just a lot of people who are bullies who want me to to be different to who I actually am. Who can't cope with me not expressing femininity , who can't cope with me rejecting their ideals , who can't believe I am technically minded ( and a lot better than most other men or women ) . Who want to treat me as a piece if meat first and human second

And I want that for other people too

Yes I know it feels like something is clearly wrong with you. Yes I know you just want other people to see that. Yes I know you would do anything to get the body you want

But I also know that s not necessary

midgedude · 15/05/2021 12:58

But at the end of the day, it's your life and as long as you don't impinge on mine , get in with it

But don't impinge on my life

don't try to send me back to the dark days of dysmorphia by suggesting People are woman because of brain rather than body

That's giving credence to evil things that I had to fight against as a youngster. And girls today still suffer from the lady brain myth