How to challenge "trans people are born trans"?

[howtocomplain]

DS is being taught in school that everyone has a gender identity and trans people are born trans and that identifying as transgender "is not a phase", by Allsorts, who have been invited in to do assemblies.

I'm mindful of the government guidance that external agencies must provide content that's evidence-based, and this stuff is plainly nonsense.

Can anyone help me explain this to the school?

Can anyone point me to the source 80% of kids desisting stat? I've heard it loads but it'd be great to have a source.

And anything else that shows that children change their minds about this, or that there are a number of reasons kids may be confused about their sex?

Also, does anyone know where I could find something evidence-based, or written by experts, on social contagion?

Thanks :)

@OldCrone

Yes my happiest times were when presenting as that stereotypical girl

So is it mainly about how you appear to other people? We've had other posters on here telling us that that is 'gender expression', not 'gender identity', and 'presenting as a girl' is nothing to do with someone's gender identity and might even contradict it.

Its not just about clothes and lifestyle its much deeper than that, but as I have said before this has been a part of me since I had any kind of consciousness

So part of it is clothes and lifestyle? This again contradicts other posters who have said that gender identity is nothing to do with such stereotypes.

Thanks for engaging with people's questions here. I hope you can answer mine. I do find this idea of gender identities very confusing because it seems to be about stereotypes, but then lots of people say it's not stereotypes but they can't explain what it is. Now you seem to be saying it is stereotypes after all.

I used the word "Stereotypical" in reply to an earlier comment

I can't speak for other posters but for me there is an innate belief that I should have born female.
Presenting as female, being assumed female, the clothes and lifestyle all these things and more help to keep me sane and at times have literally kept me going.
If you said to me that tomorrow I could wake up female but had to wear men's clothes for ever more I would jump at the chance.
All the peripheral things are hugely important and enjoyable to me just as they are to most women but to actually be the person I am would trump everything.

All the peripheral things are hugely important and enjoyable to me just as they are to most women

What do you mean by this? All women are different. Which 'peripheral things' do you think are important and enjoyable to 'most women'? I can't think of a single thing that I would assume would fit this description for most women.

[quote Branleuse]@SmokedDuck out of PSHE in general or just the sex education ones?

Dont you think it might be better to see if the school could get a balanced view of the other side of some of these issues, and moderate what they are teaching though?
Im not sure whether the rules have changed yet about removing children from sex-ed lessons, but if you dont know exactly what theyre teaching them, then how do you know that you can cover it better at home, and would you actually do so?[/quote]
It's not a sex ed class. It's an assembly and partnership with the school. I know enough about Allsorts to know they teach gender ideology as fact, and I can see that from their materials online, plus the first assembly, where they've already introduced the idea that everyone has a gender identity and that trans people are born trans.

I'm 100% sure I could cover gender better at home, but it's not just this assembly that bothers me, it's what they're teaching the kids about this being the only "correct" way to think and how that will impact my child.

Plus the partnership. They're going to be around for a while, is the impression I get.

Allsorts are offering any kids in my DS's school one-to-ones (via Zoom, I think) if they think they are LGBTU (U=unsure).

Does anyone know anything about these?

I want to know, what qualifications do the people doing the one-to-ones have? Is it a counselling session or something else? If something else what is the purpose? Do they keep any records of outcomes? Can I see them? etc

I'll ask the school this stuff.

But, does anyone know anything about agencies like Allsorts doing this kind of thing. Are there any guidelines they should be following?

"Allsorts are offering any kids in my DS's school one-to-ones (via Zoom, I think) if they think they are LGBTU (U=unsure)."

Know nothing about this but my safeguarding brain is going red flag, red flag 🚩 🚩 🚩

Gender spectrum theory is great, as it breaks down stereotypes that hold the sexes back and reinforces misogyny and patriarchy in our society.

It's crystal clear, both by this post and others you've made that you don't understand what the gender critical position is, nor do you seem to have much grasp of just how rigid the 'gender spectrum' thinking is.

(This post is to MishyJDI, who I expect will ignore this as they have every other reply).

As ANewCreation said the red flags flying on that proposal are legion.

It sounds extremely dubious, perhaps you should contact Safe Schools Alliance for the answers to your questions.

@ANewCreation

"Allsorts are offering any kids in my DS's school one-to-ones (via Zoom, I think) if they think they are LGBTU (U=unsure)."

Know nothing about this but my safeguarding brain is going red flag, red flag 🚩 🚩 🚩

For anyone collecting red flags here's another new one.

The Proud Trust have recently launched their 1 to 1 chat service for children to talk online (to an older stranger) about their gender or sexuality. We are told that the child will be talking to someone who is LGBTQ+, that this person can be trusted and that will have first hand experience of the types of problem that LGBT children encounter. The site also has the 'exit button' so it can be kept private from any prying parents.

What is it with these people, we are told this is not a cult but all their tactics come straight out of the Cult Handbook

In plain sight isn’t it?
There will be a time when people look back on this with horror that they let it happen and didn’t stand up.

By people I don’t mean you OP, I mean the people who are letting these people in to schools.

Sorry to derail but I wanted to thank @Imasoulman for engaging and their honesty. I would also like to ask a question, if I may? You said this:

For me the acceptance and confirmation from other women was and still is the holy grail

I have often heard this from trans women, but why is it so important? Why are other peoples opinions that important? I sincerely apologise if this offends, I dont mean to but I have often wondered.

Old Crone: “What do you mean by this? All women are different. Which 'peripheral things' do you think are important and enjoyable to 'most women'? I can't think of a single thing that I would assume would fit this description for most women.”

Yet in the neighbouring post where you leapt on the word ‘stereotypical’ you seem to take one trans person’s account as definitive of all trans. Shifting goal posts. Double standards.

No such thing as a typical woman.

Definitive proof trans people are into stereotypes.

Most women do enjoy fashion, make up etc. Get over it. Lidl’s version of Rumpole of the Baily

@SmokedDuck

If that’s the case you must ban all faith schools and such in education.

Personally I think that’s a good idea.

@PointOfOrder

Old Crone: “What do you mean by this? All women are different. Which 'peripheral things' do you think are important and enjoyable to 'most women'? I can't think of a single thing that I would assume would fit this description for most women.”

Yet in the neighbouring post where you leapt on the word ‘stereotypical’ you seem to take one trans person’s account as definitive of all trans. Shifting goal posts. Double standards.

No such thing as a typical woman.

Definitive proof trans people are into stereotypes.

Most women do enjoy fashion, make up etc. Get over it. Lidl’s version of Rumpole of the Baily

It wasn't the word 'stereotypical' that I was responding to, but the description of being a woman as something to do with clothes and lifestyle. For that particular poster, being a woman appears to be mainly about stereotypes and being perceived as a woman by other people. I made an observation that some other males who identify as transgender have said that for them it's not about any stereotypical behaviours or appearance but is just a feeling they have. You're right that I shouldn't take this as contradictory, just the experiences of two different people.

But if children are being taught about this we should be able to give them a clear definition of what we are talking about.

I'm not sure that it's true that 'Most women do enjoy fashion, make up etc'. It's not the case in the women I know, but I haven't done a proper survey, and I suspect neither have you.

I think kids who are questioning their feelings about sexuality and gender really do need good, impartial sources of information. Not everyone has parents who are willing or able to discuss this.
But what does 'trusted' really mean? When you have misgivings about the philosophy that underpins an organisation that isn't going to engender trust.

He is 12 and my understanding is many trans people feel it from an age where they get aware of the sexes

This can often be an indicator of nascent lesbian or gay sexual orientation. Social identity really starts to be explored from about the age of 7, and as the word 'social' suggests how an individual interacts with social and cultural factors very much shapes that.

Before that it is very much familial factors. I can easily imagine a mother desperately longing for a daughter, having instead a son ( itself based on stereotypical imaginings about what having a daughter would mean), and the child picking up on those longings and desires. The young child's mind is very plastic and susceptible to the familial atmosphere.

Lots of people who post here have told of their longing to be the opposite sex when younger.

Why are other peoples` opinions that important?

living your life based on the opinions of others and believing that external validation from others will make you happy, makes for an unhappy and restricted life.

@FindTheTruth

Why are other peoples` opinions that important?

living your life based on the opinions of others and believing that external validation from others will make you happy, makes for an unhappy and restricted life.

This is such a good point. It's actually much more empowering to be less reliant on validation and approval.

OP well done for challenging this in your son's school.

I think 'gender' is so badly understood and despite talking to a few trans people, or reading up on it, I cannot understand this idea of an innate gender identity. H

How can it be anything other than stereotypes.

My own observations are that many people seem to have a sex dysphoria rather than gender dysphoria. They are unhappy with having breasts or whatever. The clothing is used to hide what they feel they should not have (in natal girls).

@Imasoulman thank you fur engaging so openly, I am sure it is not easy. "The happiest, healthiest and most balanced I have ever been were during the years that I could present as female."

This is a personal question (feel free nit to answer) - are you still able to present as a woman or has something. Changed?

Like PoleToPole I am interested to know why acceptance by women is a holy grail. The trans person in my family is a young trans man and the acceptance of young men dies not seem to figure much for him. Neither way is a criticism, of him or you, just curious to me. I would like to understand. Feel free bit to answer. Or pm me. Thank you.

It's actually much more empowering to be less reliant on validation and approval

Which is why gender identities that require validation have an inherent fragility out of which they are shaped. It is not borne out of a healthy state of mind. Life demands that we interact with the world. We can be anyone we want in the privacy of our own imagining.

Like PoleToPole I am interested to know why acceptance by women is a holy grail. The trans person in my family is a young trans man and the acceptance of young men dies not seem to figure much for him. Neither way is a criticism, of him or you, just curious to me. I would like to understand. Feel free bit to answer. Or pm me. Thank you

Yes, this is interesting as it does seem to be the case for most young transmen. The focus is not so much on external validation and feeling more like oneself without the hindrances of feminine gender expectation. We don't see transmen demanding access to male spaces in quite the same way; there is no clamour to use the men's loo etc

Sorry typos!!

''...thank you for engaging..."

The trans person in my family is a young trans man and the acceptance of young men does not seem to figure much for him...'

as much as feeling more oneself

"Feel free not to answer"

Sorry on phone and have sausage fingers !!