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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How to challenge "trans people are born trans"?

198 replies

howtocomplain · 13/05/2021 07:33

DS is being taught in school that everyone has a gender identity and trans people are born trans and that identifying as transgender "is not a phase", by Allsorts, who have been invited in to do assemblies.

I'm mindful of the government guidance that external agencies must provide content that's evidence-based, and this stuff is plainly nonsense.

Can anyone help me explain this to the school?

Can anyone point me to the source 80% of kids desisting stat? I've heard it loads but it'd be great to have a source.

And anything else that shows that children change their minds about this, or that there are a number of reasons kids may be confused about their sex?

Also, does anyone know where I could find something evidence-based, or written by experts, on social contagion?

Thanks :)

OP posts:
somethinginoffensive · 15/05/2021 13:10

Sorry this is just not true, Trans people are born Trans.

What does this mean?

Italiangreyhound · 15/05/2021 13:50

JustSomeDude123

j"ust going off the title. trans people arent born trans, its a result of how you were raised and so many other factors."

I'd be interested to see the evidence for this

Italiangreyhound · 15/05/2021 13:53

For a start I don't think 'trans' is one thing. And the idea to that it's how you might be raised sounds like mums (who do the bulk of 'raising") are responsible.

RedDogsBeg · 15/05/2021 14:13

@Billi77

You could always just let people be themselves rather than challenging them like you know who they are better than they do? It’s not an easy ride having dysphoria, even without the bullying.
People can be themselves what I won't accept is people expecting or forcing me to believe and validate what they believe about themselves.

It's not an easy ride being female without the extra bullying and intimidation from people insisting they are women when they are not and demanding total inclusion into female spaces and services.

OldCrone · 15/05/2021 14:18

@Italiangreyhound

For a start I don't think 'trans' is one thing. And the idea to that it's how you might be raised sounds like mums (who do the bulk of 'raising") are responsible.
To be fair to the other poster they did say 'and many other factors', but in many cases it seems to be the father who drives much of this, with fixed ideas about what is acceptable behaviour for boys or girls or fear that their child is gay.

Other than ROGD, I have yet to see (I think) a story about a 'trans child' who wasn't raised in a very sexist household. Many males who transition as adults tell stories about not being allowed to play with 'girls' toys' or abusive behaviour from fathers who think they're not manly enough.

And when Imasoulman said "If it was down to how you were raised then I would be a cigar smoking macho rambo style bully" on this thread, I assume that is describing their father's behaviour, which is the same pattern again. (Please correct me if I've misunderstood, Imasoulman)

bitheby · 15/05/2021 14:26

My personal take is that trans people probably are born trans but that doesn't mean that everyone with gender confusion or even dysphoria growing up is actually trans. It certainly wasn't the case for me.

Italiangreyhound · 15/05/2021 14:38

"To be fair to the other poster they did say 'and many other factors', but in many cases it seems to be the father who drives much of this, with fixed ideas about what is acceptable behaviour for boys or girls or fear that their child is gay."

This us indeed one scenario but I don't think trans is one thing with one cause. It's a lot of different things.

RoseRedCityHalfAsOldAsTime · 15/05/2021 14:53

@howtocomplain

My personal belief is that this is largely a cultural movement and no person is born trans. But if I'm having a go at them for not using evidence-based resources I have to concede this is an opinion, I don't have evidence to prove it

But should you need evidence? Claims should be supported by evidence. If they are going to claim that gender exists and that in some people the gender does not match their outward appearance, that is an extraordinary claim and it's down to them to prove both parts, not down to you to suck it up and believe it without any supporting evidence.

somethinginoffensive · 15/05/2021 15:20

I have to concede this is an opinion, I don't have evidence to prove it

To decide whether someone is "born trans" at the very least a definition of what trans means is needed, and how that might apply to a new born baby.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 15/05/2021 16:44

Sorry this is just not true, Trans people are born Trans.

If it was down to how you were raised then I would be a cigar smoking macho rambo style bully.

All this shows is that you don’t seem to understand the role of the unconscious in our lives, or much about psychology/child development/family dynamics etc, Imasoulman.

From your post I’m guessing that your father was in fact a macho bully. Perhaps he was cruel to your mother, as well as you. It certainly sounds like you didn't have a healthy male role model as a male child.

It could be that in your case it was actually the very overt expectations placed on you to be stereotypically and aggressively masculine that made you shrink from and so fundamentally reject your maleness as soon as you realised that you were the same sex as your father. That’s what pp mean when they say it can be a result of how you were raised, not that your parents deliberately raised you to be trans.

Anyway, I’m going to presume, going by this and the lack of response to my earlier question, that you haven’t tried therapy yourself.

Obviously that’s entirely your personal choice (both whether to have therapy or not and whether to answer my question or not) but I’m not at all comfortable with the way you seem to use women to fill some need in you rather than trying to address that need for yourself.

We’re not here to have our “lived reality” appropriated by biologically male people who have psychological issues arising from a difficult childhood. We’re not here to confirm and validate you. We’re not here to do your emotional labour for you. We’re not here to make everything better for you at our own expense.

Have you never wanted to explore all this for yourself? Is it easier to just ascribe it all to being “born trans” than to take the (often immensely painful) steps that therapy entails to address the neglect/abuse/dysfunction/whatever you grew up with that has caused you such distress? Such distress that you actually reject who you are on this fundamental level?

Many women on here have shown you compassion and empathy. Where is your compassion and empathy for us, women (many of whom also carry with us the scars of abusive/dysfunctional childhoods) who are directly harmed by this narrative of “born in the wrong body”, women whose rights and safety are being undermined by this ideology you subscribe to, women who are exhausted and drained by the expectations placed on us by male people to constantly be the nurturers, the helpmeets, the service humans?

We have needs too. It’s a struggle for many women to meet their own needs, especially those of us whose needs weren’t met in our own childhoods, never mind the needs of all the male people who don’t want to be bothered with doing their own emotional heavy lifting.

“Woman” isn’t an identity; it is our material reality and one you don’t share, so I for one would hugely appreciate it if you would back off in your attempts to colonise our experience as something that somehow belongs to you, or should belong to you, or would belong to you if only you’d had access to puberty blockers.

The fact that you have felt this way for so long simply shows that this is a way a boy or man can feel, a way a boy or man can experience life. It doesn’t make you a woman. It doesn’t mean you were “born in the wrong body”. Even if you were able to pass, you wouldn’t be a woman, you’d just look like one. Possibly.

Give us a break. Redefine manhood. Make manhood inclusive of all adult human males. Dig around in your own story, if you have the courage, to see if you can find any answers for yourself. I’m glad that, unlike many trans rights activists, you’re in touch with reality enough that you recognise that you don’t pass and I hope that means you don’t try to access women only spaces. If so I appreciate that. Also that you recognise that most GNC children will not grow up to identify as trans if left alone.

How about being even more of an ally to us and to them by trying to really understand where this issue comes from in your own life, and dropping the “born this way narrative”?

Imasoulman · 15/05/2021 17:18

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

No I have never had therapy relating to being Trans, I am not sure that I would be strong enough to delve to deeply into anything that would take me back to my early life, maybe that is something I need to work on.

You are right to assume that I didn't have a decent male role model, but by the same token my mother wasn't supportive or encouraging. I didn't become Trans through nurture or my environment. I was born Trans, I have always been and always will be Trans.

I accept that there are many many people who believe they are Trans that have been influenced by other factors.

I am enormously grateful for the compassion and empathy that is shown to me.
I don't mean to come across as if I am entitled or trying to appropriate anything, I have tried to be honest in sharing my feelings and emotions.

To be accepted into a female friendship circle would be amazing, it's something I dream of like winning the lottery not something I ever expect.

I understand not everyone will see things from my point of view, how could you be expected to.
I don't expect to be welcome in female only spaces, nor should any males feel that they have that right.

I am maybe as clear and concise in getting my thoughts out as some of you. I will work on that

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 15/05/2021 17:24

No I have never had therapy relating to being Trans, I am not sure that I would be strong enough to delve to deeply into anything that would take me back to my early life, maybe that is something I need to work on

Not trans related but my friend has recently had therapy and it’s literally been life changing for them, she went because of parental issues and has worked the ‘damage’ its done to her other relationships

midgedude · 15/05/2021 18:07

Well o do hope you find people who accept you and love you IRL

In many ways it doesn't matter if it's innate or not, what matters is we can all respect each other and work out how we can all live good lives

RedDogsBeg · 15/05/2021 18:35

To be accepted into a female friendship circle would be amazing, it's something I dream of like winning the lottery not something I ever expect.

Could you expand a bit on this @Imasoulman, what does being accepted mean in this? How are you defining it? What are you expecting from women in how they act towards you to signify this acceptance?

toffeebutterpopcorn · 15/05/2021 19:20

People will accept you for who you are. People cannot be expected to accept you on the basis of how you want them to.

QuentinBunbury · 16/05/2021 09:55

Flowers soulman
You are strong enough and therapy could help you not to feel ashamed of who you are.
FWIW I have no issue at all with someone saying they are and always have been trans. It must be a struggle and confusing and it's not down to anyone else to minimise or explain away that struggle.
My issue comes when someone tries to tell me what I am, and minimises my own struggles. I have suffered abuse and physical medical issues because I'm a woman a.k.a. an adult human female. When people say a woman is a feeling, and males with that feeling are women, to me that feels dismissive of all the issues I face through being a woman. And my issues are very very common if you are female.

For me it's really not about "gatekeeping" or excluding people. It's about my own experiences being respected and valued.

Imasoulman · 16/05/2021 13:15

@RedDogsBeg

To be accepted into a female friendship circle would be amazing, it's something I dream of like winning the lottery not something I ever expect.

Could you expand a bit on this @Imasoulman, what does being accepted mean in this? How are you defining it? What are you expecting from women in how they act towards you to signify this acceptance?

This is actually hard to answer, I fear I will be accused of being stereotypical in my thought process.
However from the outside looking in I see acceptance as being a part of that inner circle.

You know how for instance at something like a neighbours bbq, there will be a fairly obvious divide between the men and women gathering and chatting in separate groups,I want to be in amongst the other women.

I want to join in and feel a part of that.
I want to be invited along for a coffee or a nose around the shops.
I want to feel trusted and know that I am not being held at arms length because of a perceived agenda.
To feel that empathy and solidarity.

Basically just that level of friendship that women have.
It comes back to wanting to be validated I guess.

I don't expect anything from any women, i know its not your duty to validate me or anyone else.
The only thing I would ever ask for is kindness and respect in the same way that I respect and value the needs of women.

You need to remember that I am in my 50's and never had the opportunity to transition, I do feel trapped, frustrated and if I'm honest jealous.

I'm not going to put on a dress and expect to be treated as the woman I feel I am, I realise that won't realistically happen anymore than winning the lottery will.

Are my thoughts stereotypical? Perhaps not, perhaps after all they are pretty akin to many lonely women?

Imasoulman · 16/05/2021 13:19

@toffeebutterpopcorn

People will accept you for who you are. People cannot be expected to accept you on the basis of how you want them to.
I absolutely agree, the problem is society doesn't always allow you to be who you are.
toffeebutterpopcorn · 16/05/2021 13:32

As in individual people or laws?

Imasoulman · 16/05/2021 13:53

@QuentinBunbury

Flowers soulman You are strong enough and therapy could help you not to feel ashamed of who you are. FWIW I have no issue at all with someone saying they are and always have been trans. It must be a struggle and confusing and it's not down to anyone else to minimise or explain away that struggle. My issue comes when someone tries to tell me what I am, and minimises my own struggles. I have suffered abuse and physical medical issues because I'm a woman a.k.a. an adult human female. When people say a woman is a feeling, and males with that feeling are women, to me that feels dismissive of all the issues I face through being a woman. And my issues are very very common if you are female.

For me it's really not about "gatekeeping" or excluding people. It's about my own experiences being respected and valued.

Thank you, but I am not ashamed of who I am.

I agree it must be incredibly frustrating to hear men say " I feel like a woman "
And then expect to welcomed into female spaces and demand acceptance.

The self id people have caused do much distrust and anger it's devastating, it has set us back and perhaps sadly turned many people who need as allies against us.

For myself and I assume other genuinely Trans people it's hard to describe.

Using the word "feeling" is maybe not the best, most descriptive word but I'm not sure how else to explain.
It's deeply inate, it's natural, it's from within.

Imasoulman · 16/05/2021 13:56

@toffeebutterpopcorn

As in individual people or laws?
As an individual people, communities etc. Certainly not laws, laws have moved on far to fast and often inappropriately with not much regard for people actually want
OldCrone · 16/05/2021 14:03

It's deeply inate, it's natural, it's from within.

But whatever you're feeling, it's not 'feeling like a woman'. Because 'woman' is not a feeling. It's a word which defines half the adult human population and is biological. Women don't all feel the same any more than men do.

So perhaps you dislike the macho stereotypes of being a man. Or you prefer female company to male. You seem to be describing yourself as someone who rejects masculine stereotypes and prefers feminine ones. This doesn't mean you 'feel like a woman', because lots of women hate the feminine stereotypes, and you saying that you 'feel like a woman' because you embrace them implies that those women aren't actually women when they are.

RedDogsBeg · 16/05/2021 15:22

Thank you for answering Imasoulman, I genuinely appreciate you doing so.

I can understand where you are coming from.

Imasoulman · 16/05/2021 15:26

@OldCrone

It's deeply inate, it's natural, it's from within.

But whatever you're feeling, it's not 'feeling like a woman'. Because 'woman' is not a feeling. It's a word which defines half the adult human population and is biological. Women don't all feel the same any more than men do.

So perhaps you dislike the macho stereotypes of being a man. Or you prefer female company to male. You seem to be describing yourself as someone who rejects masculine stereotypes and prefers feminine ones. This doesn't mean you 'feel like a woman', because lots of women hate the feminine stereotypes, and you saying that you 'feel like a woman' because you embrace them implies that those women aren't actually women when they are.

Yes I embrace feminine stereotypes but I never said that is why I feel like a woman.

I was born with this reality, as I said " feeling" isn't really an adequate word.
I don't know how I can convey what I experience, what other words are there.

Imasoulman · 16/05/2021 15:28

@RedDogsBeg

Thank you for answering Imasoulman, I genuinely appreciate you doing so.

I can understand where you are coming from.

Thank you