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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

How to challenge "trans people are born trans"?

198 replies

howtocomplain · 13/05/2021 07:33

DS is being taught in school that everyone has a gender identity and trans people are born trans and that identifying as transgender "is not a phase", by Allsorts, who have been invited in to do assemblies.

I'm mindful of the government guidance that external agencies must provide content that's evidence-based, and this stuff is plainly nonsense.

Can anyone help me explain this to the school?

Can anyone point me to the source 80% of kids desisting stat? I've heard it loads but it'd be great to have a source.

And anything else that shows that children change their minds about this, or that there are a number of reasons kids may be confused about their sex?

Also, does anyone know where I could find something evidence-based, or written by experts, on social contagion?

Thanks :)

OP posts:
Branleuse · 13/05/2021 15:03

@SmokedDuck out of PSHE in general or just the sex education ones?

Dont you think it might be better to see if the school could get a balanced view of the other side of some of these issues, and moderate what they are teaching though?
Im not sure whether the rules have changed yet about removing children from sex-ed lessons, but if you dont know exactly what theyre teaching them, then how do you know that you can cover it better at home, and would you actually do so?

Branleuse · 13/05/2021 15:06

@Imasoulman that tells me that you are happiest presenting in a more feminine way, and that you should absolutely be able to do so. Clothes are clothes and hair is hair. No reason you should be stopped from expressing yourself in that way especially if it makes you feel more at ease with yourself.

Obviously it isnt proof that you were born in the wrong body or anything, but im all for gender bending, and wish it wasnt such a big deal to some people that we stick to our boxes.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 13/05/2021 15:08

I don't think there is such a thing as 'the wrong body'. Otherwise most of us would be asking for a recall, since most people have something they'd like to change.

FindTheTruth · 13/05/2021 15:14

proselytising has no place in a school.

WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld · 13/05/2021 15:17

People change history all the time. Sometimes it's written for all to see. There are TW who have previously written blogs about being gay men or growing up gay
It's also common to find a narrative that fits and stick to it to support your belief system
There is no science behind the wrong body belief. I see now that groups are claiming that its nothing to do with stereotypes. This seems to be after being criticised for reinforcing stereotypes. So the narrative has changed to accommodate
Still all accounts particularly of 'trans' children refer to clothes or liking the wrong toys

toffeebutterpopcorn · 13/05/2021 15:18

So how come we can whip children out of religious assemblies and talks by the local vicar/priest/mullah... and yet we have to subject them to this (which is more harmful in my opinion)?

DH says - its the way the world is now, we are the older generation, bla bla bla - but why is it? Why do we allow it to be relentlessly pushed on out kids? And it is bloody relentless...

SmokedDuck · 13/05/2021 15:20

[quote Branleuse]@SmokedDuck out of PSHE in general or just the sex education ones?

Dont you think it might be better to see if the school could get a balanced view of the other side of some of these issues, and moderate what they are teaching though?
Im not sure whether the rules have changed yet about removing children from sex-ed lessons, but if you dont know exactly what theyre teaching them, then how do you know that you can cover it better at home, and would you actually do so?[/quote]
I am happy for the school to teach biology, and basic things around consent, sexual assault, things that are dangerous or real myths (you get get pregnant standing up, STDs are only passed through PIV< etc.) Probably some similar things along those lines.

As soon as you get past that into social controversies, values, etc, they have no standing to teach that to kids and no particular expertise.

Justhadathought · 13/05/2021 15:38

My own lived experience, I was born Trans, born in the wrong body. However you want to put it

But had you been living in other times, eras or societies you may well have translated your feelings of discomfort or dysphoria differently. The trans narrative is really just a recent one.

Nonmaquillee · 13/05/2021 15:43

I'd be bloody livid, first of all - teaching an ideology as if it's a fact.

I would ask them - please give me a clear explanation of the meaning of gender identity. Then - what is gender expression? Then - so how does someone "identify as a woman"? They will UNDOUBTEDLY trot out all sorts of hogwash which, at every turn, you can answer with, "Yes, but men can / do do that too".

It's impossible to answer these questions without using stereotypes that we've tried to get rid of since the 1970s. We're going backwards as a society and it's terrifying.

Justhadathought · 13/05/2021 15:44

Gender spectrum theory is great, as it breaks down stereotypes that hold the sexes back and reinforces misogyny and patriarchy in our society. I still never get why so many people wish to simply enforce such rigid rules rather than be progressive and welcoming

Gender is a set of cultural expectations around behaviour, preferences, roles etc That is what stereotypes are and that how they arise. there is no breaking down of anything - just the opposite. What you are suggesting is that if someone is a certain sex then they will automatically express in certain ways...whichreally is regressive, and that if you don't conform, then somehow you are in the wrong body

How can you not see that?

Nonmaquillee · 13/05/2021 15:47

I've just googled Allsorts and the rainbows on their website have told me everything I need to know...

I understand that schools aren't allowed to AFFIRM anything. Sounds as if Allsorts do nothing but AFFIRM.

Justhadathought · 13/05/2021 15:50

What is a real man or real woman? A film stereotype

A woman is a human female. A man is a human male .

There is no such thing as a real man or a real woman outside of cultural or gender stereotypes. These stereotypes are what both the women's and the gay liberation movements were trying to vanquish.

Just being male or female doesn't mean you must express in certain ways. I honestly am a bit gobsmacked to be having to explain this.

Nonmaquillee · 13/05/2021 15:54

"Gender spectrum theory is great, as it breaks down stereotypes that hold the sexes back and reinforces misogyny and patriarchy in our society. I still never get why so many people wish to simply enforce such rigid rules rather than be progressive and welcoming"

It's not progressive - it's regressive. The worst load of utter BS I have ever read on this for schools is the brainwashing resource called Genderbread. My jaw was on the floor at the extent to which it reinforced rigid stereotypes.

I have never had, and don't ever wish to have, a "gender identity" - I don't really even know what this is apart from trying to pigeonhole myself into some narrow box. I'm me, myself. No idea how I identify.

Justhadathought · 13/05/2021 16:06

Gender spectrum theory is great, as it breaks down stereotypes that hold the sexes back

How does it do that? Are you able to explain?

Imasoulman · 13/05/2021 19:36

@Zinco

I would say that trans people who come to accept their biological gender are not actually Trans in the first place.

You see some Christians that will say a similar thing. Former Christians that have deconverted were never "real Christians" to start with. The issue with this, is that it's dogmatic, without evidence, and the person who says it has an agenda in play to protect their own belief-system.

That is a very good analogy. So two separate groups here - 1} People who are born Trans and people who have a life long unfaltering Christian faith.

2} People who go through a period believing they are Trans, often starting out of the blue around puberty, a very confusing time of life but if left alone will in most cases move on.
People who find Christian faith at a certain point in their life, embrace it and wholly believe but for any number of reasons drift away from that faith.

Both groups deserve respect but they are not the same.

Imasoulman · 13/05/2021 19:50

@purpleboy

Thanks for engaging *@Imasoulman* I was just wondering if you don't mind me asking, you say you were at your happiest when you presented as female, that presumably means presenting as a stereotypical what society expects of a female, (seeing as all females present differently) what makes you feel that you should of been born the opposite sex? Please feel free to ignore me if it's too personalSmile
Yes my happiest times were when presenting as that stereotypical girl, I was lucky to have been able to take advantage of those years. I have just always known that I should have been born female, its just always been there. I wish I could express it in words but I really can't. I just feel wrong, I'm not complete ..... as I said I cant really express it. Its not just about clothes and lifestyle its much deeper than that, but as I have said before this has been a part of me since I had any kind of consciousness
Justhadathought · 13/05/2021 19:59

Yes my happiest times were when presenting as that stereotypical girl, I was lucky to have been able to take advantage of those years.
I have just always known that I should have been born female, its just always been there.I wish I could express it in words but I really can't.
I just feel wrong, I'm not complete ..... as I said I cant really express it.
Its not just about clothes and lifestyle its much deeper than that, but as I have said before this has been a part of me since I had any kind of consciousness

I don't think anyone would seek to deny your very real and felt experience; but what people might question is how and why that feeling or sense of self arose.

Before the overwhelming trans narrative that is presented today, which suggests that because you feel a certain way it must mean that you were somehow born in the wrong body - with all that entails about 'gendered souls and identities, there might have been more psychologically based explorations and explanations.

Justhadathought · 13/05/2021 20:02

You mentioned feeling happiest when "presenting as a stereotypical girl". The thing about presentations is that they are based on how other people respond to our presentation. I'd suggest that maybe you liked how people ( & men?) perceived and treated you on account of them reading you as female?

toffeebutterpopcorn · 13/05/2021 20:04

Why do people say ‘present as’ - it sounds a rather medical term. I don’t get ‘identifies’ either.

Justa47 · 13/05/2021 20:04

@howtocomplain

It seems everytime I see a post on MN about transgender issues they alway appear rather negative.

Why is that?

He is 12 and my understanding is many trans people feel it from an age where they get aware of the sexes.

But is it just a point to get concerned about. Trans people exist but for years they like gay people like ethic minorities where forced into a corner

I think there is a good here that at leat these things are talked about in a safe environment now.

Better that than people only having some of the tripe on the internet.

OldCrone · 13/05/2021 20:10

Yes my happiest times were when presenting as that stereotypical girl

So is it mainly about how you appear to other people? We've had other posters on here telling us that that is 'gender expression', not 'gender identity', and 'presenting as a girl' is nothing to do with someone's gender identity and might even contradict it.

Its not just about clothes and lifestyle its much deeper than that, but as I have said before this has been a part of me since I had any kind of consciousness

So part of it is clothes and lifestyle? This again contradicts other posters who have said that gender identity is nothing to do with such stereotypes.

Thanks for engaging with people's questions here. I hope you can answer mine. I do find this idea of gender identities very confusing because it seems to be about stereotypes, but then lots of people say it's not stereotypes but they can't explain what it is. Now you seem to be saying it is stereotypes after all.

Imasoulman · 13/05/2021 20:17

@mollythemeerkat

But surely *@Imasoulman*, if you think there is a large number of people who come to accept their biological gender (I would say sex), because, as you put it, they werent, "trans in the first place", then that is a huge argument for not embarking on medication, cross sex hormones etc at the kind of numbers that it is happening now. And it seems, the pressure is not to question this but to accept that teenagers and children have an instinctive knowledge and "know best".
Absolutely agree 100% Its scary how many children and in particular girls are identifying as Trans. Obviously the vast vast majority of them are not actually Trans and desperately need protection from embarking down the wrong road. There are of course still those genuine Trans kids who really do help and the sooner the better. I wish I knew the answers I really do.
Sidesaladofchips · 13/05/2021 20:23

Sorry I don't have anything to contribute, just came on here to say that I can't believe they are teaching this shite in schools.

Imasoulman · 13/05/2021 20:25

@Justhadathought

My own lived experience, I was born Trans, born in the wrong body. However you want to put it

But had you been living in other times, eras or societies you may well have translated your feelings of discomfort or dysphoria differently. The trans narrative is really just a recent one.

Trans people have always been here, obviously it was impossible to transition until recently but that doesn't mean that there was not people out there living a daily battle.
Imasoulman · 13/05/2021 20:37

@Justhadathought

You mentioned feeling happiest when "presenting as a stereotypical girl". The thing about presentations is that they are based on how other people respond to our presentation. I'd suggest that maybe you liked how people ( & men?) perceived and treated you on account of them reading you as female?
Yes I would not deny that the way people perceived and treated me played a huge part in the way I felt, it was incredibly up lifting and confirming for me. For me the acceptance and confirmation from other women was and still is the holy grail