How to challenge "trans people are born trans"?

[howtocomplain]

DS is being taught in school that everyone has a gender identity and trans people are born trans and that identifying as transgender "is not a phase", by Allsorts, who have been invited in to do assemblies.

I'm mindful of the government guidance that external agencies must provide content that's evidence-based, and this stuff is plainly nonsense.

Can anyone help me explain this to the school?

Can anyone point me to the source 80% of kids desisting stat? I've heard it loads but it'd be great to have a source.

And anything else that shows that children change their minds about this, or that there are a number of reasons kids may be confused about their sex?

Also, does anyone know where I could find something evidence-based, or written by experts, on social contagion?

Thanks :)

OK, I've googled the Dice game, it came from the Proud Trust so Allsorts didn't make it. Allsorts are mentioned in it though.

Also, Transgender Trend say "The Proud Trust has now completed a 3-year pilot of its Rainbow Award scheme which it led with partners the Kite Trust, Allsorts, humankind; declaring it a success they plan to continue the project with the 300 schools involved. This is concerning because those schools signing up to the scheme in the belief that is adding value to their PHSE or RSE teaching will in fact be teaching a highly contested set of beliefs, not facts."

That last bit is exactly my concern, that beliefs are being taught as fact by a lobby group.

www.transgendertrend.com/proud-trust-nothing-proud/

I'm not trying to say no person who identifies as trans wasn't born to have gender dysphoria, we simply don't have enough evidence to say one way or another.

The current view, overall, among trans activists (there are dissenting views) is that people do not have to have gender dysphoria to be trans. What this means in reality is not specified, although if you try to clarify this it will get you into trouble. That's where the human shield aspect comes in.

The well meaning trans allies do not want to engage with the fundamental point that "trans isn't one thing" and will react negatively or even angrily if you try to open their eyes to this. Care needs to be taken here.

I would probably question why the school are using Allsorts.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518315-Allsorts-school-assemblies

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3953878-12-yr-old-DD-Gender-Dysphoria-sudden-announcement?msgid=97906721#97906721 (poster mentions that Allsorts guidance is being pulled 'up and down the country')

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3352655-Brighton-Argus-article-on-Allsorts

its an absolute minefield, and sometimes I just think that its better to just keep the dialogue open at home so he can ask questions. I think school needs to know that there isnt a consensus though and they need to be careful as the guidelines for teaching this have recently changed.
I would definitely be raising it with the people teaching it and find out what it is they are teaching and how.
I dont recommend removing the child from these lessons though, as they still need to know whats going on out there, and there will be important stuff in it. Its better to try and get the school to moderate what theyre teaching ALL of the children, rather than remove the odd one from a lesson in protest

I basically emailed the department asking them to clarify what they meant about teaching about gender identities. I explained that my child was currently identifying as non-binary and that we were using a watch and wait strategy and were concerned that they may make a confusing time more confusing than it needed to be especially for autistic children, and whilst I expected kindness and tolerance, I didnt want them to teach things as fact that were in fact controversial and without consensus even amongst the communities involved. I sent a link to some transgender trend stuff.

They replied with

Thank you for your recent feedback on our RSE statement. Sorry it's taken a little while to respond.

You raised a question about our approach to gender identity. Our starting point comes from our school mottos (............. edited to remove school motto), in particular the ideas of respecting each other, respecting diversity, and creating a safe and kind community of staff and students. In Y9 students have sessions called Life Lessons, within this students have their awareness raised of stereotypes (eg. the pink/blue aisles in toy shops) and are given the language to describe a range of gender identities and sexualities (what is meant by transgender, cisgender, etc.), and are asked to consider the impact of discrimination based on gender identity or sexuality (just as elsewhere in school the impact of discrimination based on sex, race, religion, disability, etc. is considered.)

I hope that helps. It is likely different in different schools, but there of course are ways to tackle this, without either removing your child, or coming across as intolerant or telling the kids that its all bullshit, as we dont want to make it horrid for kids who are struggling with their identity either

If people are born trans, why do so many detransition? Why do so many people (especially girls) only realise they're trans when they're teenagers, having shown no signs before? Surely if someone had dysphoria, they'd be showing discomfort and distress about their physical body from a very early age.

I believe the Education Act 1996 (section 406/407) covers being politically impartial in schools.

Trans-issues are certainly a political question imo, and so the law should apply. Whether someone is "trans from birth" might be a scientific question, but the reason it comes up is tied up with people's political agendas and claims about "rights". So heavily political.

Ask that they bring in a group to give the other side of the debate to the pupils.

Also demand evidence for the claims being made. If they can't produce it, then suggest they are guilty of dangerous misinformation. (As well as not giving both sides of the debate.)

I think you could also complain to the local education authority as the legal duty falls on them as well as the school.

The idea that a child might be born to have gender dysphoria does not sit right with me. Born to be gender non-conforming, yes (a combination of having gender non-conforming interests and a personality type that society deems to be typical of the opposite sex, combined with a personality trait that makes you more likely than others to assert that personality and pursue those interests even if there is societal or family pressure not to), but I don’t see how that could ever inevitably lead to gender dysphoria or a subscription to gender ideology or a believe that being gender non-conforming means there is something wrong with being your sex, without society making being gender non-conforming something to fix.

@PaleBlueMoonlight

The idea that a child might be born to have gender dysphoria does not sit right with me. Born to be gender non-conforming, yes (a combination of having gender non-conforming interests and a personality type that society deems to be typical of the opposite sex, combined with a personality trait that makes you more likely than others to assert that personality and pursue those interests even if there is societal or family pressure not to), but I don’t see how that could ever inevitably lead to gender dysphoria or a subscription to gender ideology or a believe that being gender non-conforming means there is something wrong with being your sex, without society making being gender non-conforming something to fix.

Yes, I agree. My personal belief is that this is largely a cultural movement and no person is born trans. But if I'm having a go at them for not using evidence-based resources I have to concede this is an opinion, I don't have evidence to prove it.

I do, however have evidence to prove it's not true that all people who ID as trans were born to be trans and that it never changes.

That’s not to say that I don’t understand that for some people the fact that they are so gender non-conforming or have such acute gender dysphoria means that they are ultimately happier transitioning.

@Branleuse

I basically emailed the department asking them to clarify what they meant about teaching about gender identities. I explained that my child was currently identifying as non-binary and that we were using a watch and wait strategy and were concerned that they may make a confusing time more confusing than it needed to be especially for autistic children, and whilst I expected kindness and tolerance, I didnt want them to teach things as fact that were in fact controversial and without consensus even amongst the communities involved. I sent a link to some transgender trend stuff.

They replied with

Thank you for your recent feedback on our RSE statement. Sorry it's taken a little while to respond.

You raised a question about our approach to gender identity. Our starting point comes from our school mottos (............. edited to remove school motto), in particular the ideas of respecting each other, respecting diversity, and creating a safe and kind community of staff and students. In Y9 students have sessions called Life Lessons, within this students have their awareness raised of stereotypes (eg. the pink/blue aisles in toy shops) and are given the language to describe a range of gender identities and sexualities (what is meant by transgender, cisgender, etc.), and are asked to consider the impact of discrimination based on gender identity or sexuality (just as elsewhere in school the impact of discrimination based on sex, race, religion, disability, etc. is considered.)

I hope that helps. It is likely different in different schools, but there of course are ways to tackle this, without either removing your child, or coming across as intolerant or telling the kids that its all bullshit, as we dont want to make it horrid for kids who are struggling with their identity either

Without explaining what they mean by gender identity and transgender that statment is pretty meaningless. So the children are made aware of stereotyping and are given the 'language' to describe the other terms. What are they actually being taught? Born in the wrong body? Liking the stereotypes of the opposite sex makes you transgender? Or if you like the stereotypes of your own sex you're 'cisgender'? Bit of both makes you non binary? Or just that you can have a feeling in your head that you have an 'identity' of the opposite sex?

They are making the assumption that everyone understands what is meant by 'gender identity' and 'transgender', in the same way as you'd expect adults to know what sexuality means. But there is no clearly defined definition of these terms, and many of us dispute that 'gender identity' actually exists apart from as a sort of quasi religious belief.

With respect to the “born trans” assertion, they have no evidence and should not be teaching this as fact. Transwoman Laverne Cox has an identical twin. The twin played the pre-transition character in a flashback in “Orange is the New Black”. The twin is not trans.

...or you could be a little kind and acknowledge that there is a wide spectrum of human development and ideas, and as it doesn't impact your DS....tell them not to worry about it and just treat others how they would like to be treated - with due respect.

Gender spectrum theory is great, as it breaks down stereotypes that hold the sexes back and reinforces misogyny and patriarchy in our society. I still never get why so many people wish to simply enforce such rigid rules rather than be progressive and welcoming.

What is a real man or real woman? A film stereotype? That is toxic culture and terrible for boys in forcing them to try and comply with isolated feelings, competition and aggression (boys dont cry), and girls into being held back for "Safety". It's just so wrong, but so few on here can see it...or choose to do so....

For a board on feminism, the great amount of threads dedicated to one issue that should be liberating is astounding.

Haters going to Hate I guess..... Sad.

I just think you have to be mindful of what you want to achieve and whether thats realistic @OldCrone I mostly agree with your opinion on the issue, but I wouldnt expect them to put it like that to teenagers either. I think in a school, they need to give more balance to both sides while being respectful of the very big feelings that adolescents are having about their identity. We cant just be dismissive and mocking about it. They really feel like this and id hope the school were kind and supportive, but that doesnt mean they have to teach them stuff as fact when it isnt. Basically the transgender trend approach which I think is brilliant and balanced

Gender spectrum theory is great, as it breaks down stereotypes that hold the sexes back and reinforces misogyny and patriarchy in our society. I still never get why so many people wish to simply enforce such rigid rules rather than be progressive and welcoming.

Gender critical feminism is the complete opposite of promoting "stereotypes that hold the sexes back". Gender identity ideology can only exist with those stereotypes, it's founded on them and it reifies them. You seem a bit confused.

And OP is quite right to challenge this agenda-driven, sexist, pseudoscience.

Some people are born Trans, that is a fact.

Some people go through a stage of believing they are Trans which they eventually move on from,that is also a fact.

@MishyJDI

...or you could be a little kind and acknowledge that there is a wide spectrum of human development and ideas, and as it doesn't impact your DS....tell them not to worry about it and just treat others how they would like to be treated - with due respect.

Gender spectrum theory is great, as it breaks down stereotypes that hold the sexes back and reinforces misogyny and patriarchy in our society. I still never get why so many people wish to simply enforce such rigid rules rather than be progressive and welcoming.

What is a real man or real woman? A film stereotype? That is toxic culture and terrible for boys in forcing them to try and comply with isolated feelings, competition and aggression (boys dont cry), and girls into being held back for "Safety". It's just so wrong, but so few on here can see it...or choose to do so....

For a board on feminism, the great amount of threads dedicated to one issue that should be liberating is astounding.

Haters going to Hate I guess..... Sad.

Gender identity ideologists and gender critics are not so far apart in thinking in some ways. Both believe that sex is not the same as gender.

The difference seems to be in what gender is.

Gender critics say gender is a set of sex role stereotypes from feminine to masculine (think of mermaids barbie/GI Joe spectrum maybe) and say sod this altogether - you don't need to fit yourself anywhere on a spectrum whatever body you have.

No one who is gender critical is ever going to be enforcing sex role stereotypes as that is what they are critical of.

What do you believe gender to be?

@MishyJDI

...or you could be a little kind and acknowledge that there is a wide spectrum of human development and ideas, and as it doesn't impact your DS....tell them not to worry about it and just treat others how they would like to be treated - with due respect.

Gender spectrum theory is great, as it breaks down stereotypes that hold the sexes back and reinforces misogyny and patriarchy in our society. I still never get why so many people wish to simply enforce such rigid rules rather than be progressive and welcoming.

What is a real man or real woman? A film stereotype? That is toxic culture and terrible for boys in forcing them to try and comply with isolated feelings, competition and aggression (boys dont cry), and girls into being held back for "Safety". It's just so wrong, but so few on here can see it...or choose to do so....

For a board on feminism, the great amount of threads dedicated to one issue that should be liberating is astounding.

Haters going to Hate I guess..... Sad.

Or we could just expect schools to follow Dept for Education guidance.

I’m unsurprised that you’re conflating sex with gender, most gender extremists do, so anyone learning from them makes the same mistake.

Men and women are biological terms. Masculinity and femininity are cultural concepts and products to be sold. Man and woman souls are a religious belief.
Women are female people with any personality. Try engaging with that statement and see how liberating it is!

allImasoulman - "Some people are born Trans, that is a fact".

Any chance of a bit of evidence to support this belief of yours?

I'll wait.........

How old is anyone who uses the phrase haters going to hate
At least it wasn't haterz, it's your only saving grace

@persistentwoman

allImasoulman - "Some people are born Trans, that is a fact".

Any chance of a bit of evidence to support this belief of yours?

I'll wait.........

My own lived experience, I was born Trans, born in the wrong body. However you want to put it.

All the people who have transitioned across the world and are living happy well balanced lives is also proof enough

I hope that helps. It is likely different in different schools, but there of course are ways to tackle this, without either removing your child, or coming across as intolerant or telling the kids that its all bullshit, as we dont want to make it horrid for kids who are struggling with their identity either

I'm really shocked by the language in here. To me it sounds like they are saying you are a bigot. And what sort of teacher uses "bullshit" in a professional email?

Facts? They talk of facts?

When they some people won’t even confirm that a baby is actually boy or girl, merely ‘assigned’ (what is that - a guess or assumption?) this at birth?

Get gender the hell out of schools. Focus on inclusion for those who have disabilities, focus on bullying and how social media is really dangerous. Focus on allowing boys and girls to like and do the same things - have the same aspirations and opportunities.

Investigate how this has all taken hold. Follow the money.

My own lived experience, I was born Trans, born in the wrong body. However you want to put it.

How do you know if you weren't born trans, but let's say it was some sort of outside influence (of whatever kind) that happened at 6 months old, or 2 years old?

I doubt that "lived experience" could really tell someone that they were born that way.

Someone may remember identifying opposite gender from an early age, but that's not exactly the same as being born that way.

Also, what about people that come to terms with their biological gender? They could have (possibly) exactly the same "lived experience" as you, right up until the time they accept their biological gender. How can you be so sure that possibly the same couldn't have happened to you?