How to challenge "trans people are born trans"?

[howtocomplain]

DS is being taught in school that everyone has a gender identity and trans people are born trans and that identifying as transgender "is not a phase", by Allsorts, who have been invited in to do assemblies.

I'm mindful of the government guidance that external agencies must provide content that's evidence-based, and this stuff is plainly nonsense.

Can anyone help me explain this to the school?

Can anyone point me to the source 80% of kids desisting stat? I've heard it loads but it'd be great to have a source.

And anything else that shows that children change their minds about this, or that there are a number of reasons kids may be confused about their sex?

Also, does anyone know where I could find something evidence-based, or written by experts, on social contagion?

Thanks :)

@Imasoulman Thank-you very much for your openness and honesty on this thread.

I have great sympathy for you and for all other transwomen who had unhappy childhoods but I know there is another way for future generations.

Can I give you the example of a male family member of mine, I'll call him Jack. It was evident before his second birthday that he was an effeminate child and everyone can still see that when we look back on old home videos. The way he walked, talked, things he liked and things he hated. I always think he is the type of atypical male child that Mermaids mums describe as being 'born trans'

His father wasn't particularly macho and left the majority of the parenting to the mother before leaving the home when Jack was about 5. Jack's mum had several other children and was very laid back in her parenting style. Within reason she supported Jacks choice of clothes, toys and friends. He befriended 3 girls who lived nearby before he started school and continued those friendships throughout his school years. He did all the usual things, play dates, days out, went to their birthday parties, attended the same after school clubs and had sleep overs. He was always known by the female version of his name i.e Jackie but he was a boy and everyone, including Jack, knew it.

At 16 he came out to his family and friends as gay, which didn't surprise anyone, and it is only then that he started socialising with males by dating them.

Jack is now in his 30s and the same girls are still his 'besties'. They meet up regularly and are just like any other group of friends. They have obviously bickered at times over the years but they have stuck with each other through life's ups and downs. They've been on holiday together and he even went shopping with one for her wedding dress and was a bridesman at her wedding.

Oh and if you see him at a BBQ he will always be chatting with the women or sorting out the nibbles in the kitchen.

I don't think Jack is unique as I've known other children who have had gender non conforming childhoods. Wouldn't you agree that is better option than a childhood full of lies that leads to hormones and surgery?

Yes I embrace feminine stereotypes but I never said that is why I feel like a woman.

I was born with this reality, as I said " feeling" isn't really an adequate word.
I don't know how I can convey what I experience, what other words are there.

Whatever it is you're feeling, it's not 'feeling like a woman'. The only thing which unites all women is our sexed bodies. Any 'feelings' which women have are either those shared by men, because they are human feelings, or they are those which some women have and not others.

There is no universal 'woman' feeling which all women have (and no men). If there was, and a man also experienced it, it would simply mean that it was a human feeling which both women and men could have, not that the man was feeling like a woman.

Well said, OldCrone.

Its the validation really
If other women believe in me, accept me and offer that confirmation through friendship then it makes me feel validated in myself, it makes me feel that I am considered genuine*
Being "one of the girls" is something we all want

The issue is that laws are being changed and females are being forced to provide validation for adult male identities. Being forced to lie and pretend. Being told our feelings, our own reality and our sexed bodies are irrelevant.

All those males wanting and demanding the validation you crave won't truely get it anyway. The women will now smile and nod out of fear of consequence if they don't play along.

@Thingybob

I understand the point you are making but Jack isn't Transgender so of course the way he was raised meant that he grew up to be a well balanced happy young man.
Intervention with hormones or surgery would in his case have been devastating.

There are as you know huge amounts of young people especially girls identifying as Trans at the moment, we all know that hardly any of them are actually Trans and they need guidance and protection.

Equally though there a small percentage, a very small percentage of youngsters who are in fact Transgender. They also need our help and for them the earlier the intervention the better.

Don't ask me how we determine who is who because I really do not have the answer.
I am unable to even convey how I know that I am Trans so how you could ever determine that in someone else is i'm not sure.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Well said, OldCrone.

Not really "well said" at all !

Its basically exactly what I said.
"feeling" doesn't really convey it but I can't express it any other way.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

Its the validation really If other women believe in me, accept me and offer that confirmation through friendship then it makes me feel validated in myself, it makes me feel that I am considered genuine* Being "one of the girls" is something we all want

The issue is that laws are being changed and females are being forced to provide validation for adult male identities. Being forced to lie and pretend. Being told our feelings, our own reality and our sexed bodies are irrelevant.

All those males wanting and demanding the validation you crave won't truely get it anyway. The women will now smile and nod out of fear of consequence if they don't play along.

You have taken those quotes slightly out of context.

They were a reply to comment where I was trying to be open and honest about how I would ideally like things to be.

I was not asking for or expecting anything, and I certainly don't think anyone can demand validation, in any case that would never truly be validation so it would to me be meaningless

I agree about the laws being changed, and have said so on this thread.
Female only spaces should be protected.

I heard that iamsoulman

I think you nailed it when you said something like the tra demands will make it difficult for people like you who just want to live your life without impinging on others

Its basically exactly what I said.

How is it exactly what you said? You said "Yes I embrace feminine stereotypes but I never said that is why I feel like a woman."

I said it's not possible to 'feel like a woman' if you are male (and I don't know what 'feeling like a woman' means even if you're female), because 'woman' is not a feeling.

I don't know how you can interpret what I said to be the same as what you said when the two statements contradict each other.

Remember that this thread is about the 'born trans' narrative, about children at school being taught that being trans is not a phase.

Therefore this paragraph highlights a huge issue. Girls are being told they can be boys, and who wouldn't take that opportunity?

There are as you know huge amounts of young people especially girls identifying as Trans at the moment, we all know that hardly any of them are actually Trans and they need guidance and protection.

This is stated as though fact.
Equally though there a small percentage, a very small percentage of youngsters who are in fact Transgender. They also need our help and for them the earlier the intervention the better.

By a grown adult who can't even explain how they know they are trans, despite being sure about it.

And then they make the clearest possible case for watchful waiting/supportive counselling:

Don't ask me how we determine who is who because I really do not have the answer.
I am unable to even convey how I know that I am Trans so how you could ever determine that in someone else is i'm not sure.

What we can determine is what sex a person is, and that they are in mental distress. We can determine that puberty blockers and hormones at levels appropriate for the opposite sex have major effects on a child's development but have no evidence of long-term efficacy or safety.

As Crone says, it is not possible to 'feel like a woman' because woman is not a feeling, it's a biological fact.

We need to keep education based in fact and evidence. Teenagers always play with identity as they grow up, it just shouldn't be with adults encouraging medication and future surgery.

I am unable to even convey how I know that I am Trans so how you could ever determine that in someone else is i'm not sure.

If you can't describe it, how would you even know that two people who claim to be trans are even experiencing the same thing?

What is this 'trans' if it can't be defined? Why are children being told that they can be born trans when nobody can even explain what it means, let alone diagnose it using objective criteria?

@OldCrone

Its basically exactly what I said.

How is it exactly what you said? You said "Yes I embrace feminine stereotypes but I never said that is why I feel like a woman."

I said it's not possible to 'feel like a woman' if you are male (and I don't know what 'feeling like a woman' means even if you're female), because 'woman' is not a feeling.

I don't know how you can interpret what I said to be the same as what you said when the two statements contradict each other.

But you are now only sharing half the quote you used before !

The full quote you used -

Yes I embrace feminine stereotypes but I never said that is why I feel like a woman.
I was born with this reality, as I said " feeling" isn't really an adequate word.
I don't know how I can convey what I experience, what other words are there

So yes if you read the whole quote in the proper context then you are basically saying the same as I did. Its not simply a feeling !

@somethinginoffensive

Remember that this thread is about the 'born trans' narrative, about children at school being taught that being trans is not a phase.

Therefore this paragraph highlights a huge issue. Girls are being told they can be boys, and who wouldn't take that opportunity?

There are as you know huge amounts of young people especially girls identifying as Trans at the moment, we all know that hardly any of them are actually Trans and they need guidance and protection.

This is stated as though fact.
Equally though there a small percentage, a very small percentage of youngsters who are in fact Transgender. They also need our help and for them the earlier the intervention the better.

By a grown adult who can't even explain how they know they are trans, despite being sure about it.

And then they make the clearest possible case for watchful waiting/supportive counselling:

Don't ask me how we determine who is who because I really do not have the answer.
I am unable to even convey how I know that I am Trans so how you could ever determine that in someone else is i'm not sure.

What we can determine is what sex a person is, and that they are in mental distress. We can determine that puberty blockers and hormones at levels appropriate for the opposite sex have major effects on a child's development but have no evidence of long-term efficacy or safety.

As Crone says, it is not possible to 'feel like a woman' because woman is not a feeling, it's a biological fact.

We need to keep education based in fact and evidence. Teenagers always play with identity as they grow up, it just shouldn't be with adults encouraging medication and future surgery.

But I'm not saying otherwise !

I have said many many times that hormones and surgery shouldn't be pushed on these young people.
I agree with watch and wait.

All I am saying is that watch and wait is not the perfect catch all solution, its the best we have at the moment and works for a certain group.

If I could establish who is genuinely Trans and who is going through a phase then do you not think I would share that.

Do you not believe in the existence of Trans at all?
I am in my fifties now and have been known I was Trans since I was maybe Four (obviously i had no concept of Trans, I just knew I wasn't right ) that is a long time to go through a phase

@OldCrone

I am unable to even convey how I know that I am Trans so how you could ever determine that in someone else is i'm not sure.

If you can't describe it, how would you even know that two people who claim to be trans are even experiencing the same thing?

What is this 'trans' if it can't be defined? Why are children being told that they can be born trans when nobody can even explain what it means, let alone diagnose it using objective criteria?

Do you want me to just lie and say "this is how I know" I feel I am just repeating myself over and over.

I don't know how to identify one from the other, once again I wish I could.
Transgender people exist, they are real.

Why as a Transwoman am I expected to know how other people feel?

I am not privy to what is going on the head of a young teen who suddenly decides they are Trans anymore than anyone else is.

So yes if you read the whole quote in the proper context then you are basically saying the same as I did. Its not simply a feeling !

So do you think you 'feel like a woman' or not?

@Imasoulman

Why as a Transwoman am I expected to know how other people feel?

I am not privy to what is going on the head of a young teen who suddenly decides they are Trans anymore than anyone else is.

So do you agree that we shouldn't be medicating children who think they are trans and we shouldn't be encouraging them to think this by letting them 'identify as' the opposite sex?

Yes!! I have said this over and over!!

Medication is the correct route for some, the very few but by no means all.

Do you not believe in the existence of Trans at all?

I believe that some people are distressed by their physical body and believe they "should have been" born the opposite sex.

I believe there are a much greater number of people who are not comfortable with the gendered expectations placed on them due to their sex. That's basic feminism.

I don't believe we should be teaching children that some people are "born trans" when trans is not well defined.

Stonewall include both the above groups in the definition of trans.

@OldCrone

So yes if you read the whole quote in the proper context then you are basically saying the same as I did. Its not simply a feeling !

So do you think you 'feel like a woman' or not?

Yes I feel like a woman but you said I can't. I have tried to explain or define this " feeling" in another way but I just can't.

I should have stuck to my guns in the first place.

I know my own mind and I won't allow anyone to tell me otherwise.

I don't want to endlessly argue with you, either you accept Trans people exist or you don't.

Yes I feel like a woman but you said I can't. I have tried to explain or define this " feeling" in another way but I just can't.

And yet you said of my post 'Its basically exactly what I said.'

Here's what I said which you said is the same as you're saying:

Whatever it is you're feeling, it's not 'feeling like a woman'. The only thing which unites all women is our sexed bodies. Any 'feelings' which women have are either those shared by men, because they are human feelings, or they are those which some women have and not others.

There is no universal 'woman' feeling which all women have (and no men). If there was, and a man also experienced it, it would simply mean that it was a human feeling which both women and men could have, not that the man was feeling like a woman.

So what I said is not the same as what you said unless you think saying that you feel like a woman is the same as me saying that it's not possible for you to feel like a woman.

I don't want to endlessly argue with you, either you accept Trans people exist or you don't.

I accept that there are people who identify as trans. You exist.

Women exist, and men can't 'feel like women'.

Are my thoughts stereotypical? Perhaps not, perhaps after all they are pretty akin to many lonely women?

I’ve been lonely and... honestly, no. If we’re going to talk about undefinable unnamable “feelings” I have to say I never get a “this is a woman” feeling from transwomen writing about being a transwoman (or about anything else.) Being a transwoman seems to me to be a very specifically male experience.

I was thinking about this again, and @Imasoulman says they want the being in the womens` group chattering at BBQs, the sorting snacks in the kitchen, that kind of thing, and that its the Holy Grail for transwomen - please forgive me for paraphrasing. To me, as an adult woman those things feel like oppression, they feel like chains strangling and suffocating me.

I can remember from childhood the women in the kitchen chattering, gossiping, preparing snacks, and the men outside, and I hated it from before I was even old enough to go to school. I was fortunate to have brilliant parents who didn`t reinforce stereotypes, but it is all around, and as I say I found it suffocating to the point of panic. I felt like I had to get away from it, it felt like a cage.

It was like a square peg being forced into a round hole. I still hate it now, but there has never been a single moment when I doubted I was a women, even when I was "womaning wrong", I just didn`t fit in with the social group which surrounded me. So I picked a different social group, a DH on the same wavelength, and a career path which worked for me.

I like makeup, I dont wear dresses, I hate gossip and always have, and I havent ever felt like a woman because I am one.
Feeling like a woman is just a false social creation designed to keep women in their boxes by making them feel like they should adhere to the "ideal feminine woman" stereotypes which the patriarchy wants, or face the scorn and ostracisation of their fellow women (and men).

No thanks to that. I am me, not a series of stereotypes as frail as a house of cards. Learning to accept yourself, and to be happy in yourself is something I think almost all of us go through, and it is difficult. Regardless of whether someone is trans or not, there ought to be more support for self esteem building, and support for young people to find the path they genuinely want to go down, not are socialised or pressured down.