How to challenge "trans people are born trans"?

[howtocomplain]

DS is being taught in school that everyone has a gender identity and trans people are born trans and that identifying as transgender "is not a phase", by Allsorts, who have been invited in to do assemblies.

I'm mindful of the government guidance that external agencies must provide content that's evidence-based, and this stuff is plainly nonsense.

Can anyone help me explain this to the school?

Can anyone point me to the source 80% of kids desisting stat? I've heard it loads but it'd be great to have a source.

And anything else that shows that children change their minds about this, or that there are a number of reasons kids may be confused about their sex?

Also, does anyone know where I could find something evidence-based, or written by experts, on social contagion?

Thanks :)

Letter to Head of school, copy to Chair of Governors:

"There is no such thing as gender identity, just as there is no such thing as an immortal soul.

"I know some people think there are, and I do not wish to disrespect these people nor have my children taught to disrespect them. Equally, I do not wish my children taught as fact that there are such things as immortal souls or gender identities.

"Please desist from trying to convert my children to metaphysical beliefs I do not share.

"This is an important matter on which I am sure my wishes can be granted in accordance with all relevant legislation and guidelines. Equally I am sure you will agree that children should not be indoctrinated at school with beliefs not shared by their parents.

"Yours etc."

The dice game... It had different body parts of (missing the clitoris of course) and participants had to say how those body parts could go together for sexual enjoyment. So they might throw a anus and vagina

Anus and vagina?

I would honestly be confused and struggling to explain how to get pleasure out of that combination. Actually, I don't think I would even try to explain that to children even if I could.

All the people who have transitioned across the world and are living happy well balanced lives is also proof enough

Thats not proof of being born that way

Haters going to Hate I guess

Oh for goodness sake, I doubt anyone on here hates anyone

I'd ask them the following what they mean by trans. If they start talking about gender identity ask them to explain clearly, as they would to a child, what they mean by gender identity. Usually this leads to some variation of "inner sense of self". At which point you clarify with them that they are also teaching the children that some people have no such inner sense of self and see men and women as simply biological categories.

Gender identity ideology is a mixture of political / philosophical belief and ought to be taught in the same manner. Some people support conservative policies, some labour. Some people are Catholic, some are atheist. Presented equally and with the overarching message of tolerance of those with different beliefs.

(As an aside, tolerance of those with different beliefs is one of the fundamental British Values that all schools are required to promote. It also forms part of the Teachers' Standards.)

Yes, I definitely plan to be asking why they think Allsorts is an appropriate agency to bring into school. They're a lobby group pushing a set of beliefs as fact.

And the DfE has issued guidance making it clear that schools shouldn't be using groups such as Allsorts, though without naming them.

www.transgendertrend.com/department-for-education-rse-guidance-schools/

@Branleuse

I just think you have to be mindful of what you want to achieve and whether thats realistic *@OldCrone* I mostly agree with your opinion on the issue, but I wouldnt expect them to put it like that to teenagers either. I think in a school, they need to give more balance to both sides while being respectful of the very big feelings that adolescents are having about their identity. We cant just be dismissive and mocking about it. They really feel like this and id hope the school were kind and supportive, but that doesnt mean they have to teach them stuff as fact when it isnt. Basically the transgender trend approach which I think is brilliant and balanced

What do you mean by 'put it like that'? I didn't suggest how they should teach it, I just suggested some questions about what 'gender identity' and 'transgender' might mean. I would say that one reason why adolescents have such strong feelings and so much confusion about their identity is because they are being taught that they 'should' have a 'gender identity', when of course most of them are as unsure as most adults are about what this actually means, and don't feel that they have a 'gender identity' at all.

So I think it's important to know what the schools are actually teaching them about 'gender identity'. Are they teaching that it's all about stereotypes, or feeling that they are 'born in the wrong body', or that it's just some sort of mystical, religious type of feeling about identity? And are they also teaching that it's OK to think that the whole idea of a 'gender identity' is sexist nonsense?

The problem is that both sides aren't being taught. They're teaching about 'gender identity' as fact, while not being able to define what it is. It should be taught as a religious type of belief system, that some people believe in gender identities and others don't.

I'm sorry you took my post to be dismissive and mocking. That wasn't what I intended at all.

@QuentinBunbury

I hope that helps. It is likely different in different schools, but there of course are ways to tackle this, without either removing your child, or coming across as intolerant or telling the kids that its all bullshit, as we dont want to make it horrid for kids who are struggling with their identity either

I'm really shocked by the language in here. To me it sounds like they are saying you are a bigot. And what sort of teacher uses "bullshit" in a professional email?

They didnt. Im a parent, and i didnt use that term in my email. Sorry i assumed that would be obvious

Ah sorry, I misread it. I thought it was the schools reply. Phew!

I am highly suspicious of the motivation behind creating a narrative of 'born this way' for children. We don't think of 'gay' or 'straight' babies/toddlers/pre-schoolers/primary kids. Who actually benefits from this imposition of identities and sexualities on pre-pubescent children? Because I can definitely see what is in it for some adult males...

Plus I am concerned at what may be the 'iatrogenic effect' of introducing to children on the cusp of puberty with an (entirely developmentally normal) unstable sense of self , the idea that you can just choose to be the other sex if you feel uncomfortable as your own. Who in early puberty does not feel somewhat uncomfortable with their changing body?
Also the problematic concept of everyone having a 'gender identity'. Many billions of us have lived perfectly well without one and will continue to do so.

Kids nowadays spend hours playing computer games as avatars of the opposite sex. They customise their avatars' bodies at will, developing new skins, adopting any online persona they wish. It's not an enormous leap to see that this cavalier attitude to 'sex change' online can spill over into real life - just take some medication, chop off bits of the body that don't appeal and bolt on bits that do. Job done.

Many teens, growing up without any signs of discomfort about their bodies or sex and then suddenly with ROGD talk about how they didn't know that being trans or being the opposite sex/gender was 'a possibility' until they were told or read it online. Or did an online personality quiz which revealed they were trans.

Due to the long waits for gender clinics, it is highly unlikely that children with issues around their 'gender identity' have had this diagnosed by any kind of specialist.

Instead, children are effectively diagnosing themselves with gender dysphoria.

As the vast majority of kids grow out of this by the normal process of going through puberty, then the school needs to be very careful about putting anything in place that either a) encourages them into a state of dysphoria or b) effectively holds them in that state of dysphoria rather than allowing them to pass through to the other side relatively unscathed.

I find this thoughtful from Matthew Parris:

"We shall have many more gay and bisexual people in the century ahead. That’s fine. And perhaps many more trans people too. Again, fine. But we should nail early the misconception that all we’re doing is respecting “what people really are”. By social pressure, classroom pressure , media pressure and, yes, through mere fashion, we are moulding soft clay, not discovering some great shard of internal granite children are born with. The younger the person, the softer the clay. It may not be a shirking but a shouldering of responsibility, to ask a child to wait."

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/its-clear-our-sexuality-isnt-set-in-stone-8zp9ldf5h

Gender spectrum theory is great, as it breaks down stereotypes that hold the sexes back and reinforces misogyny and patriarchy in our society. I still never get why so many people wish to simply enforce such rigid rules rather than be progressive and welcoming.

You won't find people here who want to enforce stereotypes, but surely gender spectrum theory relies on the existence of those stereotypes.

What is a real man or real woman? A film stereotype? That is toxic culture and terrible for boys in forcing them to try and comply with isolated feelings, competition and aggression (boys dont cry), and girls into being held back for "Safety". It's just so wrong, but so few on here can see it...or choose to do so....

Nobody on here is trying to force anyone to comply with a stereotype. I'm a bit confused about what you mean about girls being held back for 'safety'. Can you explain what you mean?

For a board on feminism, the great amount of threads dedicated to one issue that should be liberating is astounding.

What is liberating for women about males being allowed to compete against them in sports and sharing what should be female only spaces?

@MishyJDI are you going to come back and engage with our actual arguments instead of just showing how you have misunderstood them?

@Zinco

My own lived experience, I was born Trans, born in the wrong body. However you want to put it.

How do you know if you weren't born trans, but let's say it was some sort of outside influence (of whatever kind) that happened at 6 months old, or 2 years old?

I doubt that "lived experience" could really tell someone that they were born that way.

Someone may remember identifying opposite gender from an early age, but that's not exactly the same as being born that way.

Also, what about people that come to terms with their biological gender? They could have (possibly) exactly the same "lived experience" as you, right up until the time they accept their biological gender. How can you be so sure that possibly the same couldn't have happened to you?

I absolutely knew from the moment that I was aware of my own consciousness that I was not who I should be.

I had no concept of "Trans" of course, I wasn't aware that anybody else felt the same as me. I just knew I should be a girl.
I genuinely assumed that one day somehow it would all be sorted and put right.

I would say that trans people who come to accept their biological gender are not actually Trans in the first place.

The feelings I experience have not changed over the years, if anything they are more intense.

The happiest, healthiest and most balanced I have ever been were during the years that I could present as female.
That should tell you something.

I would say that trans people who come to accept their biological gender are not actually Trans in the first place.

You see some Christians that will say a similar thing. Former Christians that have deconverted were never "real Christians" to start with. The issue with this, is that it's dogmatic, without evidence, and the person who says it has an agenda in play to protect their own belief-system.

Thanks for engaging @Imasoulman I was just wondering if you don't mind me asking, you say you were at your happiest when you presented as female, that presumably means presenting as a stereotypical what society expects of a female, (seeing as all females present differently) what makes you feel that you should of been born the opposite sex?
Please feel free to ignore me if it's too personal

Link the school to Transgender Trend's website, and request a meeting with head: www.transgendertrend.com

But surely @Imasoulman, if you think there is a large number of people who come to accept their biological gender (I would say sex), because, as you put it, they werent, "trans in the first place", then that is a huge argument for not embarking on medication, cross sex hormones etc at the kind of numbers that it is happening now. And it seems, the pressure is not to question this but to accept that teenagers and children have an instinctive knowledge and "know best".

The happiest, healthiest and most balanced I have ever been were during the years that I could present as female. That should tell you something.

Well I don't think it tells us that you were just born that way.

It only tells us that some people can live a happier life while living (in so far as possible) as the opposite sex. That may easily be so, and probably near everyone here would support the right of adults to do that if they so choose. (What's obviously controversial is whether they should be treated as the opposite sex in all regards, when they biologically aren't so.)

The happiest, healthiest and most balanced I have ever been were during the years that I could present as female. That should tell you something

Yes, it does say something, but what it says is the issue for debate.

Our psychological development is complex and nuanced and very much shaped by familial; and external forces.

That you feel the way you do can be explained by more than one narrative. The problem is only one narrative is being promoted.

I have no doubt that there is a very small percentage of people that are deeply unhappy with their sexed bodies and a great distress at the expectations around that. These people need access to appropriate support including health care. However their experiences have been hijacked by the Philip Bunches and Karen Whites of the world who use their "womanhood" only when it offers them an advantage.

I don't think when the likes of Allsorts talk about being born as trans they mean it in the same way that soul does. Allsorts use it as a way of shutting down discussion.

It only tells us that some people can live a happier life while living (in so far as possible) as the opposite sex. That may easily be so, and probably near everyone here would support the right of adults to do that if they so choose. (What's obviously controversial is whether they should be treated as the opposite sex in all regards, when they biologically aren't so.)

Indeed.

Yes, it does say something, but what it says is the issue for debate.

Our psychological development is complex and nuanced and very much shaped by familial; and external forces.

That you feel the way you do can be explained by more than one narrative. The problem is only one narrative is being promoted.

And yes Just, I completely agree.

Thank you for responding Imasoulman I'm not going to challenge your personal beliefs about your own experiences as I don't wish to be disrespectful.
I would however challenge anyone arguing that personal beliefs / experiences should dictate how children are taught about sensitive / controversial issues. Education should be factual, scientifically accurate and respectful of differences. It should never present beliefs as facts to the young or simplify complex adult issues to reductive statements like "born in the wrong body".

The happiest, healthiest and most balanced I have ever been were during the years that I could present as female.
That should tell you something.

I'm sorry you've had a hard time with your identity.

You talk about being happiest presenting as female, was this because it was what you felt comfortable wearing/doing? Or because of reactions from others?

Of course feel free not to answer.

There just isn't any kind of medical evidence that this is the case.

Something interesting on this is that in his book, The Madness of Crowds, Douglas Murray points out that although we use the same argument about homosexuality, we actually don't know, scientifically, that it's true. It was a narrative that was adopted because it seemed to support the direction activists wanted to go, but the science is not all that conclusive and there are also anthropological sort of questions around sexual behaviour that don't quite fit that thinking.

I've seen him in interviews and he said that he actually had quite a few other gay men asking why he couldn't have let that area alone, and he said that he felt he had to show that he was willing to be consistent in applying the principles around things like evidence and ideology.

We are in a situation though where we seem quite happy to let schools use those kinds of narratives and claim that it's fact and science if they seem to promote the values we want to teach, and it's not a new development, we've been operating that way for a good many years now.

@Branleuse

its an absolute minefield, and sometimes I just think that its better to just keep the dialogue open at home so he can ask questions. I think school needs to know that there isnt a consensus though and they need to be careful as the guidelines for teaching this have recently changed. I would definitely be raising it with the people teaching it and find out what it is they are teaching and how. I dont recommend removing the child from these lessons though, as they still need to know whats going on out there, and there will be important stuff in it. Its better to try and get the school to moderate what theyre teaching ALL of the children, rather than remove the odd one from a lesson in protest

I actually can't think of anything important my kids might get out of these lessons that they couldn't hear in a more rational and reasonable way from me at home. Like, zero.

Why would the school be in any position to teach about this stuff? Yes, there are some good teachers and heads, but plenty of them are idiots, or have values that I think are wrongheaded.

These assemblies are mostly just activist organisations that want to come in for reasons of their own, and the schools just let them. The amount of learning time schools give over to this shit is astounding.