It is unacceptable for me to feel that I don’t like men?

[OliverBabish]

I got asked by my boss if I “hate men” - he’s not my boss anymore thankfully but my honest response is that I don’t like men very much. I’m not being an arse about it either - I’ve married a man, I’m aware there are ‘good men’ or whatever - that is truly how I feel.

Ignorant of me but I didn’t even know misandry was a thing (or that there was a word for it) until really recently.

Experience (and my job) has shown me time and time again that men are far more of a problem in our day to day society than women. I know I’d probably get into loads of trouble at work if I actually voiced that opinion, but generally speaking, is it that unacceptable for me to feel this way? Am I wrong to think like this? It doesn’t affect how I treat men, it’s just how I feel.

@NiceGerbil

There's also the contradictions around this sort of thing that are impossible for women to navigate.

Eg (and have seen this in relation to recent news but it happens a lot)

This thing that this man has done to this woman is terrible. I'm generally cautious/ wary of men in certain situations. Because in general I know there is a risk.

Well that seems rather sexist. Possibly misandrist. You can't tar all men with the same brush! Loads wouldn't hurt a fly. You're totally out of order. You can't just assume every man you come across is a potential threat!

Oh? Ok. So I should give all men the benefit of the doubt then, and assume that they are just fine. In terms of my behaviour, that means that I should not think twice about going home with a man or men I don't know that well, as I would with women. Also if a man offers to walk me home after the pub, accept. I should accept drinks as I would from a woman. And if I'm going down an alley or something and there's a bloke down there not change my mind or be on the alert. Etc etc

No no doubt be ridiculous of course you must take sensible precautions

...?

Absolutely. Hence the Malteser NAMALT analogy

“But I don't assume I dislike all of a class of people based on their chromosomes or any other marker except behavioural.”

But it is behaviour, of course. For me it’s the subtle stuff that even comes from “good” guys. Discussing a woman’s body, making a joke about someone being off because they’re on their period, insinuating a colleague is “easy” because she’s been on three Tinder dates this year, keeping silent when someone makes a victim-blaming comment. I could go on. These are ordinary men, and while they don’t make up ALL men it is most of them.

Well OP said he said oh are you into all that feminist crap. Presumably she made some kind of affirmative noise. And he said 'do you hate men'

An odd question surely?

Why would he ask that?

OP says she doesn't hate anyone. Nor do I.

It's interesting that his accusation has caused way more interest than anything else!

In terms of some men saying or doing stuff that shows a dislike of women, the reaction is never 'do you hate women?'.

From the actions of various governments and actions in wars, through some religious beliefs, I'm thinking of things that lead to sexual violence or death. Onto sexism (assumption that all females are X or are no good at Y. Victim blaming. Through to a load of 'jokes' (one when I was growing up was - women. Can't live with them, can't kill them. Which was always greeted with laughter by the chaps).

I've never heard anyone say 'Do you hate women' to any of it.

Depressing really.

There is the thing about being seen as not a whole person. Not sure if that counts as hate. The aggression when you don't play your part. When you say no to an approach and some men get really aggressive. Does he hate women or just non compliant women?

Maybe men only hate women when they don't behave in the way men want them to?

It's probably another topic.

And to reiterate.

The OP didn't say she hated men.
She gave a view that a man identified as feminist 'crap' and then asked her if she hated men.

Interesting the way that is being overlooked.

I should’ve put more context in my OP to be fair.

I'm not sure it would have helped!

The kneejerk extreme reactions of some men to stuff concerning women is really odd and comes up over and over.

It would be interesting to think where it comes from.

Is it too guilt women by accusing them of something extreme so they stop it?
Is it defensiveness?
Is it because lots of men find it uncomfortable to really think about this stuff?
Is it because in the end plenty of men still see it as out of line for women to consider them in less than flattering ways?

Maybe a combination?

Examples like the OPs which I have had as well and sure is not uncommon.

EG
Mentions women's issues
Oh you're a feminist are you?
I'm well yes I think there are things that affect women that are important
Do you hate men?

The over reaction thing happened at my work over metoo. Note as well, it wasn't a topic I wanted to discuss at work but men I worked with kept asking my opinions about it. One I remember tried to strike up a conversation about rape with me at the coffee machine!

Anyway within a short amount of time the consensus of the men I worked with went through the following phases.

OMG this is awful! Why haven't women ever said this stuff goes on? (News to me that it was news to them but anyway)

Hmm there's too much to be true. I can't believe it's that bad. There must be exaggerations and made up stuff in there.

We can't even look at a woman any more!!!

It was just very odd. The man who said the last one was a pretty good friend. And sees himself as a good guy etc. And is quiet. It came out of his mouth and then he looked taken aback and scampered off somewhere.

So I suppose the real question is

Why do some men, when confronted with a woman who seems interested in women's rights (usually on being quizzed by him), say 'do you hate men'?

Kate Manne’s book on misogyny is really good and made a lot of this make sense for me. She says misogynists see women as “human givers” and not as “human beings” so they direct their misogynistic hatred at women who in their eyes aren’t fulfilling that role.

I guess some men see being openly feminist as an assertion that you might have other aspirations than being an endless source of ego gratification and mommying for them. Saying you’re a feminist is hinting you’ve got boundaries and a will of your own, so their misogyny comes out. And of course it’s all projected so they react like “why do you hate men?”

(Kate Manne is a godawful TRA which I find very weird. Her book helped me understand the trans movement.)

I know what you mean OP

My 2 best friends are men and I have a wonderful, loving grandson, but I've been single for almost 4 years through choice and just can't imagine being in another relationship, let alone living with a man again.

I don't hate men, I just don't trust them as I know too much now, and can't put that genie back in the bottle.

You're perfectly entitled to your feelings.

If I can turn this on it’s head conceptually, there is male violence towards women and girls. Of which there are many consequences of said violence including fear, injury and even death. Now if an individual woman fears, mistrusts or even dislikes me as a result of any of the above I’m inclined to view that as another consequence of men being violent. Not necessarily the fault of the individual woman.

To ask women (in general) to act in a contradictory manner to the reality they find themselves living in sounds absurdist in the extreme. It would be kind of like holding a woman responsible for a bruise she suffers at the hand of a man. It doesn’t make much sense.

I don’t like men, even though I’m married to one. I find them pathetically base, like they’re somehow less evolved than us. I don’t like feeling that way, because I know it’s not quite fair, especially now that I have a son, but I don’t know how to overcome it.All I can do is try not to show it.

I used to feel like that but having sons has forced me to turn it around. Actually, the world is not so great for most boys and men either. Think about it, they have to spend even more time with men than we do. They get beaten up by other men and have to endure their cocky talk and smell them in the changerooms after sport. My boys are only little but are already scared of making terrible social mistakes like wearing girly socks.

OP, I think it's unacceptable. Because as you know, many men are perfectly decent people, living good lives and trying their best. To hate a group in society is lazy. We have to hate wrong behaviour,. We have to have zero tolerance of it. But to generalise is the kiss of death to change, I think. Because good people get defensive and think, OK, well fuck that if you think I'm bad anyway...

To create change we have to acknowledge good role models among the group that most needs to change rather than tar them all with the same brush.

Cowbells can I ask you a couple of questions?

OP was in a conversation with a bloke about trump and said something which led him to ask if she was into all that 'feminist crap'.

She presumably made some kind of noise in the affirmative and he said 'do you hate men?'

In my read of that the man is

Starting from a certain not very open angle (a woman talking about ? Trump and women) means she is into 'feminist crap'

And then given some kind of affirmative (after he'd put her in a bit of a bind- say no no of course not and in the process sort of back off on whatever the original point was, or agree that she is into something he has strongly stated is crap)

Then when she goes with the latter leap to asking her if she hates men. So he clearly is assuming certain negative things about a whole group (feminists).

To me his side seems way more broad brush and unpleasant than hers.

Just occurred to me.

I've had this said to me before on men finding out I have feminist leanings.

It could go

Trump pussy grab abortion blah
Oh are into all that feminist crap
Erm well yes/yes a bit/I think the trump stuff is important
So. do you hate men.
No. Do you hate women

I simply cannot imagine that happening. I dread to think how the man would react!

Sorry cowbells went off on a tangent.

Do you see the OPs part in that exchange as more out of line than the man she was talking to?

@HarryHarryHarry

I don’t like men, even though I’m married to one. I find them pathetically base, like they’re somehow less evolved than us. I don’t like feeling that way, because I know it’s not quite fair, especially now that I have a son, but I don’t know how to overcome it.All I can do is try not to show it.

Can I ask why you're still married to him?

She didn't say she didn't like her husband!

Also loads of women stay with men they don't like for a variety of reasons...

@HarryHarryHarry

I don’t like men, even though I’m married to one. I find them pathetically base, like they’re somehow less evolved than us. I don’t like feeling that way, because I know it’s not quite fair, especially now that I have a son, but I don’t know how to overcome it.All I can do is try not to show it.

What a horrible attitude.

Out of interest do the posters on here saying how awful the OP is

Go on male dominated websites and give them a bollocking?

I mean I think we all know that when men talk together about women there can be a lack of... Um. Nuance.

She didn't say she didn't like her husband!
She's called him pathetically base, like they’re somehow less evolved than us with no caveat of exclusion. And of course they do, she could reply mind your own fucking business, well I like him, for the kids, for the money, for his 12 inch penis or nothing at all. It's a qn not a judgement

@QuentinWinters

I always say if I'd been bitten by dogs as many times as I'd been assaulted by men, noone would think I was unreasonable tobe scared of dogs and stay out of their way.

Your feelings are your own, its not up to anyone else to judge. They don't have your experiences.

God this is so, so true! I’ve only recently properly realised I think that I dislike men. I’ve only admitted it to my Mum though, because I do feel a bit unreasonable, I can’t help how I feel though.

@NiceGerbil

Out of interest do the posters on here saying how awful the OP is

Go on male dominated websites and give them a bollocking?

I mean I think we all know that when men talk together about women there can be a lack of... Um. Nuance.

You realise op posted a question? Which invites opinions and responses? She's not sitting in an echo chamber talking to herself. Suggesting no one can answer op unless they've challenged every man who's said similar is a little... Um. Ridiculous.

As an aside, I do this this topic is part of the cause of the "gender" disappointment threads but with less awareness

@NiceGerbil - I am intrigued to know how you reached the conclusion that OP had made a reference to Trump and that triggered the question about being into ‘feminist crap?
Whilst I absolutely am of the opinion that Trump is a particularly pertinent example of the unacceptable face (and voice and behaviour) of masculinity, and perhaps I missed it, but I don’t recall OP having mentioned Trump in context of this thread.

OP's question came from the exchange with a man she knew where she raised something to do with trump and he said you're not into that feminism crap are you. Then when she made some kind of affirmative he asked 'do you hate men'?

Note that her OP says this:

'Experience (and my job) has shown me time and time again that men are far more of a problem in our day to day society than women. I know I’d probably get into loads of trouble at work if I actually voiced that opinion, but generally speaking, is it that unacceptable for me to feel this way? Am I wrong to think like this? It doesn’t affect how I treat men, it’s just how I feel.'

So her internal feelings which are not hate but 'not like', and she feels uncomfortable enough about to post on here, and that don't affect her interactions, and which are based on her experiences, are. Wrong awful etc.

Yet the man who asked if she was into that 'feminism crap' and then if she hated men hasn't really been mentioned.

@NiceGerbil - ahh, I think that I have found the phrase that led you to decide that it was triggered by Trump. ‘ My former boss asked me in the context of “oh god, you’re not into all that feminist crap are you?” when it was the American elections.’

Then he asked her if she hated men.