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Spectator article: Aimee Challenor and the danger of transgender politics

51 replies

TimeLady · 30/08/2018 20:33

Not by our friend James this time. Thank you, Melanie .

Also mentions Bradley, Madigan and self IDing prisoners

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/aimee-challenor-and-the-danger-of-transgender-politics/

I despair at the comments below the line though.by

OP posts:
speakingwoman · 30/08/2018 21:58

Unfair to put Lily Madigan in the same group I think....

thebewilderness · 30/08/2018 22:01

Unfair to put Lily Madigan in the same group I think....
Madigan works tirelessly to roll back women's rights and end safeguarding regulations that protect women and children.
At leas that is what one says about what one does.

speakingwoman · 30/08/2018 22:02

Yeah but the author is talking about predators

shakeyourcaboose · 30/08/2018 22:36

Furthering what @thebewilderness writes, who benefits from ending safeguarding regulations if not predators?

LangCleg · 30/08/2018 22:46

The end of that article, this is now an establishment project is bloody chilling. Also puts paid to the notion of it being anything whatsoever to do with oppression of a powerless group.

seafret · 30/08/2018 22:46

Surely you can be a predator - but a pretty crap one, I woould judge it on intent rather than efficacy.

NotMeOhNo · 30/08/2018 22:49

Is a man who wants to force his way into women's spaces not some sort of voyeur?

colouringinpro · 30/08/2018 22:51

Great article, though a bit uncomfortable as author is usually a pretty toxic Mail columnist...

Wanderabout · 30/08/2018 22:54

The author gives a specific example relating to Madigan that would have ended the career of most politicians.

bluescreen · 30/08/2018 23:04

Is a man who wants to force his way into women's spaces not some sort of voyeur?
Oh, but Shirley, no man wants to do that? Only people who identify as women and demand their womanly rights, and f you don't agree with them they will give you a reet ear-bashing because they're northern like.

theOtherPamAyres · 30/08/2018 23:15

I love Melanie's writing style. It draws you in. It has humour and it hits you right between the eyes with its directness.

Here, have a Flowers and a Glitterball glitter ball. And a big Thank You.

JustAnotherSpartacus · 31/08/2018 03:41

This is an interesting article, but I think she has gotten the wrong end of the stick here

"Terfblocker (terfs being trans-exclusionary radical feminists) allows Twitter users to automatically block all of those users deemed ‘transphobic’ (ironically, feminists on the receiving end of the tool adopt similar tactics when it suits them, as in the Irish abortion referendum)."

This is a misreading of the situation. Feminists using Repeal Shield (anti-abortionist blocker) were more likely to be coming from the "Trans women are women" school of thought than not, though many pro-choice people would have no position on trans issue and have no idea what is going on.

Only a tiny number of people in Ireland are raising concerns about self-id and other trans issues. So only a very small number of Irish people would be on Terfblocker lists.

Some prominent people and groups involved in the pro-choice campaign see any questioning of transactivism/transideology as transphobic, and oppose meetings for women to discuss the potential impact of self-identification laws on women., e.g.feministire.com/2018/01/22/an-open-letter-to-the-organisers-of-the-we-need-to-talk-tour-from-a-group-of-feminists-in-ireland/ (note the first signatory in particular.) There was also a #terfsout hastag on twitter about the same time as that letter was published (as far as I can remember that was the timing of it).

I know of at least one woman who was a pro-choice campaigner on the abortion issue, who was put on the anti-abortionist blocker, I think due to her position on transactivism.

There were some sound reasons for some people to use the Repeal Shield (anti-abortionist) blocker, due to dummy accounts and people from the US trying to influence the referendum in Ireland. So I don't think using Repeal Shield is quite the same as using terf-blocker. There is a good article here on the issue www.thetimes.co.uk/article/american-anti-abortionists-posed-as-irish-on-twitter-for-referendum-9cs88bbkc

I didn't use it myself, and don't like the idea of mass-blocking people, though I can see that sometimes it might be justified (one of my concerns about mass blocking lists is how people can get unfairly put on the lists. I think once someone is not a troll they shouldn't be put on them)

JustAnotherSpartacus · 31/08/2018 03:45

Sorry for the long post. The first link in my post above didn't come out properly so posting again feministire.com/2018/01/22/an-open-letter-to-the-organisers-of-the-we-need-to-talk-tour-from-a-group-of-feminists-in-ireland/

RedToothBrush · 31/08/2018 07:58

This is the spectator. The chances of them addressing the 'misgendering issue' are slim imo.

Bowlofbabelfish · 31/08/2018 09:52

This is so troubling. It springs partly from that modern desire to label everyone as goodies and baddies and lacknof critical thought.

No, of course not everyone trans is a danger, but what is a danger is removing due process and critical examination of someone’s motives just because of a label . This goes both ways - if you’re labelling trans=automatically bad then it’s prejudice and if you’re labelling trans=automatically beyond reproach then you’re also failing.

We’ve seen this logical thought failure contribute to some awful situations recently - in Rotherham, fear of being perceived as racist/islamophobic cobtributed to the perpetrators not being caught. On the flip side the assumption that poor, predominantly white girls were willing participants is the same logical error - assuming someone’s label dictates their worth and actions. Whether that’s used to drift people or demonise them it’s the same prejudice and shoddy logic at heart.

What I hope this case and the jess Bradley case will do (although I doubt it) is to ram home the point that no one is above scrutiny. it should highlight the need for due diligence and safeguarding and critical appraisal of actual situations, not damning or deifying on labels alone.

There can be no *go straight to start, collect 200£’ card for anyone. Everyone needs the same due diligence and safeguarding to apply to them. EVERYONE.

Charliethefeminist · 31/08/2018 09:53

Hello. Pls check the BBC Challenor thread.

R0wantrees · 31/08/2018 10:21

"there’s also been cases of male prisoners self identifying as women being admitted to female prisons. That would, then, be the likes of Karen White, a trans woman, who’s been accused of groping women prisoners."

Relevent theads:
(thread below includes reaction by Lily Madigan, "Make no mistake - this is transmisogynistic fear mongering." Also Young Labour meeting with Lily Madigan, Jess Bradley and Eden Ladleye, also NUS officer)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3309758-This-never-happens-male-offenders-in-female-prisons

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3309831-To-feel-sickened-that-this-man-is-being-referred-to-in-this-way-WARNING-UPSETTING-CONTENT

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3309903-Sexual-assaults-on-Vulnerable-Women-Prisoners

R0wantrees · 31/08/2018 10:30

From OP article : "For one thing, the Challenors, father and son, allegedly carried out an internet campaign against those who took exception to Aimee’s notion of self-assumed womanhood through something called Terfblocker. Terfblocker (terfs being trans-exclusionary radical feminists) allows Twitter users to automatically block all of those users deemed ‘transphobic’ (ironically, feminists on the receiving end of the tool adopt similar tactics when it suits them, as in the Irish abortion referendum)."

relevent threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3212198-Green-Party-equalities-spokesperson-has-Twitter-blocklist-of-50-000
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3209207-Green-Party-blocking-30-000-women-on-twitter

Current discussions:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3347854-The-TerFblocker-list

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3351174-This-is-how-women-are-being-silenced

Mass Twitter 'terf' block lists:
page 8 has information about possible GDPR issues if people are put on to lists as an automated decision (algorithm?) due to who they follow:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3260432-The-Shame-of-Twitter?pg=8

legal concerns discussed:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3200394-Calling-lawyers-and-data-protection-gurus

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3241032-Blocklists

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3199889-Lily-Madigan-Blocklist

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3167753-TERF-Blocker

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3198242-Please-let-terfblocker-have-been-hacked-by-Anonymous
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3198292-Something-has-happened-with-TERF-blocker-because-of-Madigan

CrabbityRabbit · 31/08/2018 11:02

The article is sloppy. Changing pronouns, name inaccuracy. Also AC was not behind Terfblocker but was trying to build a replacement according to AC's Twitter.

If it was rewritten to be better referenced and tighter it would be good.

NameChangedAgain18 · 31/08/2018 12:50

The author gives a specific example relating to Madigan that would have ended the career of most politicians.

And that’s before quoting Madigan’s “joke” that he (pre-transition, so not misgendering) was “Jimmy Saville’s apprentice”.

R0wantrees · 31/08/2018 13:05

Also AC was not behind Terfblocker but was trying to build a replacement according to AC's Twitter.

There have been a number of mass 'terf blockers'. Its not yet understood what specific roles AC and DC played in each /any of them. The chronology is still a bit muddled and unclear.

R0wantrees · 31/08/2018 13:19

Current thread also discussing OP article:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3351873-Aimee-Challenor-punchy-Spectator-article