If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

[midgebabe]

I find it very unfair to be accused of transphobia when I am not actually worried about trans people as such. I am worried about how bad men might abuse legislative changes . I am worried about giving bad men more opportunities . About how people might be able to pretend to be trans. I suspect this is a threat to both biological women and trans women.

I hear you, midgebabe.

I think if the sexual abuse scandals of recent years - from care homes to Saville, to aid organisations - have taught us anything, it should have taught us that there are pretty much no lengths to which abusive men will not go in order to abuse, and there are no opportunities (however obscure to the ordinary person) which abusers will not spot and subsequently exploit, and no limit to the time and manoeuvring they will do in order to put themselves into a position in which they are able to exploit.

We know this. We can't unknown it. It's pointless acting as though we don't know it.

I'm very angry that I'm being asked to pretend - and then act as though - I don't know this.

When history echos it is important to notice.
Men have been telling women that refusing them is an expression of hatred for a thousand years or more. That is what we are being told now.
Transphobia is the current euphemism for women refusing men, women saying no to men. Women refusing to set themselves on fire to keep men warm.

I am all in favour of transmen and transwomen having the right to go about their life without harrassment and the threat of violence, without discrimination in housing and employment (barring a very few biologically based exceptions).

But I want some of my rights and those of other women legally protected.

I want to know that male-bodied rapists aren't going to be housed in women's prisons. I accept that it is not fair to leave genuine transwomen in the male estate, and will happily campaign for specific trans wings. But Davina Ayrton, Jessica Winfield, in women's prisons? No thanks.

I want to know that if I request a woman for my smear test, I will get a biologically female HCP. My body, my choice about who gets to touch my genitals. This doesn't in any way stop transwomen entering the medical professions - it just means there are a small number of areas where patients should have a veto.

I want rape crisis centres to be able to say "actually, because some women are likely to be understandably traumatised and triggered by male bodied individuals, we want to retain the right to employ/engage as volunteers on help lines and as peer counsellors only those women who are biologically female." I don't want to see the situation already seen in Canada where a transwoman sued a rape crisis centre to the brink of bankruptcy over the transwoman's alleged right to work with vulnerable sexual abuse victims.

I want women's sports to remain just that - women's sports, not women plus transwomen who are at a massive and unfair biological advantage because of their underlying male physiology. Lowering testosterone to 4 times the average female level while ignoring differences in height, VOmax, pelvis shape, etc. does not produce a level playing field.

I want protection for children from being allowed, before they are mature enough to realise what they are doing, to make life-altering decisions about drug regimes which may open them to major side effects and infertility. I want a world where all children know that they can play with whatever they want, wear whatever clothes they want, have whatever hair cut they want, without being bullied for it, and wanting short/long hair, wanting to play with dolls/football etc. does not mean they were "born in the wrong body."

I see these things as accepting that biology, actual physical sex, plays an important role in women's lives and can't be waved away. I understand that a lot of people see this as transphobia.

I didn't say it doesn’t matter if womens rights in prison were being abused. Far from it. I mean that is the only real life scenario I have heard of (through a friend that works in the field) where men are possibly pretending to be trans to seek attention/try to get moved into a women’s prison/other weird underlying reasons that would suggest they are not truly trans. As far as I’m aware, social workers and psychologists are wise enough not to let a violent criminal with a penis into a women’s prison, so it’s not like their attempts at pretending will actually result in them being moved. If they have transitioned to the point where they have a vagina, I don’t see it would be a problem. There are also women in prison who abused other women you know? Bad people will always seek to do bad things.

Yes, but it’s largely hysteria. I’ve not actually heard of any men abusing it apart from perhaps in prison?

Men in Women's sports. It's definitely happening and it's not just women being 'hysterical'

As such, I think hysteria about "bad men"is ridiculous. They are going to do what they are going to do. Labelling or gender won't change that. We all know it.

Actually, I don’t think we “all know it.” I know I have concerns about your assumption.

Did you read the studies upthread? It seems to me that given more opportunity, bad men will take advantage of it. The more it occurs and is “normalised” (often on the internet) the more it is seen as either “acceptable” or “something that visibly goes unpunished and can be done with impunity.” So those who were previously unsure are more likely to act.

I don’t believe these thing happen in isolation. Yes, there may be some men who are genuinely awful and would act that way. But how many times do men do things egged on by peer pressure?

Do you really believe that no man in the US heard Donald Trump talk and thought, “Hey, if the president does it...”

I think people on mumsnet are angry and fed up with the whole thing, while quite often although they may not intend to be 'transphobic' the immediate response to anything trans related and the way posts are worded come across that way.
When I first joined mn I was fairly uneducated on the issues and from just asking questions I got a few really nasty and personal attacks in response and it turned me back the other way and took a long time for me to understand what they meant and where they were comming from.

There’s tons of transphobia here. And every time someone says that they get shut down for it. It’s hinestly ridiculous sometimes. The thing is, I absolutely agree that there may be some concerns: I believe women should be able to request having a biological woman as their doctor/nurse etc when necessary, for example. But it’s the obsession. Pretty much every post! That’s what makes it feel transphobic because trans people are all anyone here seems to focus on. It’s difficult to have a talk about intersectionality because it turns into another argument filled with hatred against trans people, at the exclusion of woc and other women. I’m also concerned about the way it’s pushing people, such as Jordan Peterson being transphobic has garnered him support but he’s alt-right ffs.

I think MN is NOT transphobic.

I have been around a few years and what I do see is a lot of intelligent posters showing real concern at the earasure of female spaces and boundaries. The same posters are very quick to shout down any transphobic comments and encourage using the report button.

I do see alot of attempts at silencing those who are gender criticle by throwing the terms transphobic and terf on to every thread about trans issues.

MN has educated me and introduced me to some amazing people whos only agenda is protecting women and children.
I can not see why that is a bad thing.

Rumple that's precisely why we are all campaigning. It is not transpeople that worry us - it is the proposed move to self ID. You say social workers and psychologists are wise to it and won't allow chancers to be moved. Yes, absolutely, 100% . And that is precisely how the current GRA works - it has gatekeeping. Remove that and replace it with self ID and the rapist's say-so becomes the only legal criterion. They say they are a woman, therefore they are a woman, therefore there are no legal grounds on which to oppose them being moved to the women's estate. That's how self ID will work.

Bad men don't need excuses to do bad things. They will do them anyway.
A common error. In truth most crime is opportunistic as are most criminals. Which is why we have separate facilities for women in various states of undress.

men not pretending to be trans. It changes fuck all what they are wearing, if they are going to do it they will

The thing is. They won’t have to pretend. The potential is that anyone would able to walk gain access to a women’s safe space just by saying that they are trans. And you wont be able to challenge them.

A person doesn’t have to change their appearance in any way to be or to say that they are trans.

That’s exactly what people are upset about.

I have no issue with someone wanting to live their life in a way that makes them comfortable (within the law ofcourse).

I have reservations about the free for all that self ID could be for women.

As far as I’m aware, social workers and psychologists are wise enough not to let a violent criminal with a penis into a women’s prison, so it’s not like their attempts at pretending will actually result in them being moved.

But self-ID would mean that any "violent criminal with a penis" can become legally female by spending a few mins filling in an online form.

Then social workers and psychologists will be unable to deny their move to a women's prison.

Self-ID means no more gatekeeping of legal gender change. It means no way to stop abusive men "pretending" to be trans because there's no difference any more: it's all on the individual's say-so.

That's why self-ID is so dangerous.

But it’s the obsession. Pretty much every post! That’s what makes it feel transphobic because trans people are all anyone here seems to focus on.
There is a change in law that will dramatically affect millions of women and children all over the country. Women are talking about it because it is imminent. A current event. Under consideration now.
Criminy!

I’ve read a few of the millions of trans threads and swiftly jacked it in because I really can’t be arsed to waft through pages and pages of hate and yes, hysteria is the only word I can really think of to describe it. I do think there’s some serious debate to be had. I’m not in favour of people with penises being able to enter woman only spaces by law actually, but I think all the debate has simply become a war with one side trying to piss the other off as much as possible by writing offensive things on Twitter. It’s also hard as it’s seems genuine trans people might be being lumped in with the ‘fake’ trans, a largely mythical group.

Beyond giving a shit if someone calls me Transphobic. TRAs abuse TIMs, they tell them lies. Behaviour from TRAs leads me to believe they are happy to sterilise and gaslight children, TRAs are happy to abuse women and their boundaries. If fighting that makes me Transphobic, I could no care any less what a TRA calls me.

Yes, but it’s largely hysteria. I’ve not actually heard of any men abusing it apart from perhaps in prison?

Some of the most vulnerable women in the country are prisoners. MOstly non violent much more likely to have suffered DV than the rest of the population.

Explain why not paying your TV licence means you're suddenly less than a person?

"apart from perhaps in prison"

??

I think this is a bit of an issue - many people don't have much concern for prisoners whether male or female. They have "lost their rights" when they committed the crime. Of course the massive difference in the types of crimes that men and women are incarcerated for, the difference in average is size / strength and the fact that if women engage in consensual relationships with intact men in prison / or are raped they can get pregnant is not really seen as too much of a worry (yet).

I think that while the assault is yeah whatever, very few people will be comfortable with women prisoners getting pregnant.
Although someone suggested they might be forced to have long acting birth control which might happen, this makes me really uncomfortable and angry TBH.

I think sports is the one that most people will care about.

There’s tons of transphobia here

And yet you’d think if that was true that one single poster would be able to link to one single bloody post that was transphobic.

I’ve been waiting for months.

I’ve never seen any.

And I’m quite sick of people waltzing on to this critical thinking oasis of a site for people like me and crying that it must be so offensive to trans people and oh won’t somebody think of the lady penis feelings. (And conveniently ignoring all the trans posters on here)

Link one. If you can’t then you are talking shite.

As far as I’m aware, social workers and psychologists are wise enough not to let a violent criminal with a penis into a women’s prison, so it’s not like their attempts at pretending will actually result in them being moved.

And yet it already has. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-39337805

I’m not suggesting this individual committed any crime other than the one they were convicted for. But is it really appropriate to put a biological male who is a convicted rapist into a women’s prison ?

Bad men don't need excuses to do bad things. They will do them anyway. It's silly to think otherwise. If they want to walk into a public ladies loo and rape you they will they don't need to pretend to be a woman to do it. History shows us this. If they want to assault you at the swimming pool they will. Again history shows us this. Bad men will do it anyway. It's daft as fuck to thing the law is in some way going to give them more freedom to do it. Where there is a will there is a way

Well fine then, we don't need sex segregated space at all and trans peope aren't safer in women's toilets.

People keep saying it won't happen while ignoring the fact that it is already happening.
50% of the trans identified males in the prison system are there for sex crimes. A few have been transferred to women's residence and have offended again and put in solitary or transferred back to men's facility.
So, the question is, how many women who failed to pay their TV tax are you willing to sacrifice to trans identified male sex offenders in the name of equality.
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." Anatole France

can’t be arsed to waft through pages and pages of hate and yes, hysteria is the only word I can really think of to describe it. I do think there’s some serious debate to be had.

So there is a debate to be had but everyone but you is just hysterical and hateful

Have i got it?

I rarely contribute to these threads with regard to debating the issues, but even i can see that there are some very intelligent and serious posts which you appear to have missed because you cant be arsed to read the threads