If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

[midgebabe]

I find it very unfair to be accused of transphobia when I am not actually worried about trans people as such. I am worried about how bad men might abuse legislative changes . I am worried about giving bad men more opportunities . About how people might be able to pretend to be trans. I suspect this is a threat to both biological women and trans women.

Some of the comments I have read on here are truly transPHOBIC. Although I am with you and my dilemma/interest in the subject is around trans rights seeming to equal the loss of female space (physical and emotional 'space') and the possible abuse of this by men.

I think the reputation MN has for being transphobic is well deserved.

Yes, but it’s largely hysteria. I’ve not actually heard of any men abusing it apart from perhaps in prison? Seems most people on here are using it as an excuse to attack trans people just for being trans. Out of all the women’s issues in the world, I really don’t feel fake trans people pose a very great threat. Would be prepared to change my mind if my life experiences showed that I was indeed at threat, but I’ve not noticed it so far.

'phobia' is now being used to mean "shut up, there is no debate" on pretty much any topic, including this one.
That is a shame as real transphobia is an issue and this bandying about of the term makes it harder to address.

Some people on MN are transphobic. But in general I think MN is abusive men phobic which is entirely rational really. The fear that abusive men will exploit changes to the law regarding gender recognition is what forms the basis of pretty much every trans discussion I’ve seen on MN.

Literally one of the most transphobic places on the internet. It's renowned for it, sadly.

“Would be prepared to change my mind if my life experiences showed that I was indeed at threat”
That is, if I may say so, a remarkably insular and self centred view of the world you appear to have there

Yes Little Lebowski. That seems to be the case on this subject.

Yes it seems there are precious few examples of this actually happening and plenty of examples of transphobia/abuse/the marginalisation of a vulnerable group. I'd prefer to be inclusive.

HOWEVER, some arguments on here I have found very enlightening.

Literally one of the most transphobic places on the internet

Is this like misgendering is literally killing trans people? AKA not at all?

Yes, but it’s largely hysteria. I’ve not actually heard of any men abusing it apart from perhaps in prison?

Analysis following the change in target's bathroom/changing room policies
study

The thing is, for some reason, women are called hysterical for this concern, when just a quick google shows how many men do things like plant cameras in women's toilets/changing rooms, yet transwomen escape this accusation, their concerns for using the male toilets are accepted as valid.

If transwomen are women, why aren't they called hysterical for not wanting to use the male toilet, without evidence of this abuse? Why aren't they told to call the police if it happens?

It seems to me that the people who call women hysterical, but not transwomen are being transphobic - by their own rules, suggesting there's any difference is unacceptable.

Rumpled, I wonder if law changes could make things worse, and I hope that data is being collected in other countries that would enable us to assess the likely risk. I suspect not however .

All, yes there is evidence of hysteria and transphobia, but I don't see it dominating all discussion, perhaps I cut them short, I also do see some people responding aggressively to what appear to me to be real questions.

What do people saying they believe mumsnet is transphobic actually mean by transphobic?

What? I’m certainly not an insular person, I care very much about the world around me and other people. I meant as a feminist biological woman, who does normal woman things like use woman’s changing rooms, I don’t feel at threat from trans people and trans rights and I’ve never met any other woman IRL who does so Ive some to the conclusion that it’s largely a storm in a tea cup.

Yes, but it’s largely hysteria. I’ve not actually heard of any men abusing it apart from perhaps in prison?

Ah yes, silly hysterical women

Ok so off the top of my head - university of toronto unisex shower facilities had to he curtailed because of women being filmed. Target in the US had a rise in voyeurism incidents (including one by an actual trans woman) after their changing rooms went unisex. A man in Canada gained access to a women's shelter by claiming to be trans and sexually assaulted several women.

Add to it than stories from prisons that you seem to be aware of and I'm not sure how you can call it hysteria? Even if it was "just" in prisons, so what? How many vulnerable women need to be abused before you will acknowledge the problem?

“Hysteria” and still this tired old word gets dredged up every time someone wants women silenced.
Get a new schtick. Bored of this one

Yes I think it is but agree it's hysteria where a certain group feed off each other.

Bad men don't need excuses to do bad things. They will do them anyway. It's silly to think otherwise. If they want to walk into a public ladies loo and rape you they will they don't need to pretend to be a woman to do it. History shows us this. If they want to assault you at the swimming pool they will. Again history shows us this. Bad men will do it anyway. It's daft as fuck to thing the law is in some way going to give them more freedom to do it. Where there is a will there is a way

As such, I think hysteria about "bad men"is ridiculous. They are going to do what they are going to do. Labelling or gender won't change that. We all know it. So focus on the real issue. Or be accused of transphobia.

So if you’ve never experienced it or met someone who has it’s not an issue.
I’m literally speechless at that I’m sorry. I know this site is anonymous but have you no feeling of embarrassment or shame at posting something so silly?

Notwellbitch, each and every single example you've mentioned has happened with men not pretending to be trans. It changes fuck all what they are wearing, if they are going to do it they will.

It does worry me that people flash around the word transphobia so inappropriately.... there is real transphobia in the world, and that needs recognising and countering.... not diminishing by No Debate

Aghast at the “apart from perhaps in prisons” comment...
Like abuse doesn’t matter if you happen to be incarcerated (possibly even wrongly). Shocking.

Yes, but it’s largely hysteria. I’ve not actually heard of any men abusing it apart from perhaps in prison? Seems most people on here are using it as an excuse to attack trans people just for being trans. Out of all the women’s issues in the world, I really don’t feel fake trans people pose a very great threat. Would be prepared to change my mind if my life experiences showed that I was indeed at threat, but I’ve not noticed it so far.

Then you aren't paying very much attention. Read any one of the threads. Genuinely read it with an open mind and you will find multiple examples of where this is happening, across the globe. Just because you haven't experienced it personally does not make it 'hysteria'.

Seems most people on here are using it as an excuse to attack trans people just for being trans.

Nope, they/we are attacking the potential if SELF ID comes in. Perhaps you could try reading one of the threads? We have trans people themselves coming on and supporting the exact same point.

Bad men don't need excuses to do bad things. They will do them anyway. It's silly to think otherwise. If they want to walk into a public ladies loo and rape you they will they don't need to pretend to be a woman to do it. History shows us this. If they want to assault you at the swimming pool they will.

Difference being when they're (hopefully) put in prison it'll be a female one with plenty of other women for them to assault. Brilliant

Notwellbitch, each and every single example you've mentioned has happened with men not pretending to be trans. It changes fuck all what they are wearing, if they are going to do it they will.

Really? A man has obtained a place in a woman's shelter before and assaulted women? Why did more incidents happen after unisex facilities were introduced?

Taking away sex segregated spaces makes it easier for men to commit these crimes. No doubt some men who otherwise would not have the guts to enter a woman only space for fear of being challenged will feel empowered to simply walk in. They don't even need to wear women's clothing, simply say that they are one. It's not hysteria, it's happening