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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

405 replies

midgebabe · 05/03/2018 17:22

I find it very unfair to be accused of transphobia when I am not actually worried about trans people as such. I am worried about how bad men might abuse legislative changes . I am worried about giving bad men more opportunities . About how people might be able to pretend to be trans. I suspect this is a threat to both biological women and trans women.

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BerkInBag · 07/03/2018 13:28

This is long. Apologies in advance. Can I also caveat that I work in the construction industry and until recently have had no cause to think about these issues. This is my attempt at making sense of it all. I am totally open to critique and correction from anybody kind enough to take the time to read the following.

@DoctorW
The Scottish system does not have a self-identification system for locating prisoners in female prisons.

Everything I am reading, parliamentary research briefing and the actual Scottish Policy itself, indicates that it does have a self-identification system.

No GRC is required, in fact the policy clearly states that Applying for a gender recognition certificate is optional and is not required in order to have protection from gender reassignment discrimination . The policy highlights that the GRC is simply the mechanism that lets a trans person change their birth certificate to reflect the gender they now live in. Self-declaration is all that is required for prison Reception Managers and Unit Managers to initiate accommodating trans persons in custody within the estate they identify with.

(Doctor W states) It might not be called a 'transgender case board' but someone in the Scottish prison service will be doing an assessment and saying yes or no to the move to a women's prison.

The “someone” who “does the assessment” or at least who co-ordinates the process is the Prison Unit Manager. When a new trans prisoner arrives (or an existing one self-ids as opposite gender), The Unit Manager makes the decision, based on self-declaration as to where to accommodate that prisoner, they then have 7 days to convene an initial gender reassignment case conference

(Doctor W states) : This is the gate-keeping process that weeds out the fakes and the dangerous ones.

My reading of the guidance suggests that the gender reassignment case conference is largely concerned with placing the trans person in the estate they wish for and, once in custody, receives treatment that accords with their extant rights under the 2004 GRA ie they should not discriminated against no matter where in the reassignment process they are, GRC or no GRC.

This bit of the Scottish policy (advice to the gender reassignment case conference) is telling:

A male-to-female person in custody living permanently as a woman without genital surgery should be allocated to a female establishment. She should not be automatically regarded as posing a high sexual offence risk to other people in custody and should not be subject to any automatic restrictions of her association with other people in custody.

However, if there is clear evidence that she, as an individual, may pose a sexual offence risk, then this should be dealt with as for any other person in custody posing a risk. Only where a risk assessment determines it is justified, should she be subject to increased staff supervision or restrictions of her association with other people in custody.

This statement and everything I have been reading over the last few days leads me to the following conclusions:

(1) The present prison system in Scotland supports self-identification and their policy actively supports placing self-declared MTF prisoners in the female estate.

(2) The case board system in Scotland is primarily there to protect the rights of the self-declared trans person in line with the rights they are accorded under the 2004 GRA

(3) When it comes to “weeding out” high risk prisoners, the issue of gender identification and custody risk are treated separately. The former does not override the latter. Thus even if the case boards were done away with, high risk MTF prisoners would “ be dealt with as for any other person in custody posing a risk”. To do otherwise could be considered to infringe the human rights of other prisoners.

(4) Given all of the above – any future change to the GRA that formalises self-declaration will, as far as I can see, broadly result in BUSINESS AS USUAL in the Scottish prison system.

Sanderz · 07/03/2018 14:44

Thank you Dodo and Datun, lots to think about.

DodoPatrol · 07/03/2018 14:47

Blush I'm absolutely no expert on this, just a parent with a child in one, possibly two of the vulnerable categories for sudden-onset gender problems, and have seen several friends hit by it already.

VaguelyAware · 07/03/2018 15:24

This woman was arrested in Canada, at a protest. She was armed with a garrotte. Why the hell should things like this make me feel better about the trans movement?

ottawacitizen.com/news/national/ont-woman-arrested-after-rally-against-jordan-peterson/wcm/d8e9093a-3cd8-41c4-b8ca-46e07d86ed57

RedToothBrush · 07/03/2018 15:46

Vaguely, who was arrested? A woman or a person who identifies as a woman.

HairyBallTheorem · 07/03/2018 15:54

Absent a photo of the perpetrator Red we will never know because "misgendering" is a criminal offence in Canada.

Elletorro · 07/03/2018 15:58

Berkin

You are correct. The current definition of transgender in the Equality act affords protections to anyone who declares that they are considering transitioning.

And the protections afforded are to be treated as the opposite sex.

I believe the prison service considers on a case by case basis which strengthens their decision to use the exemptions available for segregation by sex under the Equality act.

My inside knowledge is that the police and prison staff don’t think resistance to self id will have any effect. This has been happening for years without us noticing

RedToothBrush · 07/03/2018 16:25

My point exactly. Do we really want to be in a situation where we don't know who is committing a crime?

thebewilderness · 07/03/2018 19:07

Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.
That is correct. Male offenders who identify as women perpetrate crimes at the same rate as male offenders who identify as men. Though they do have a higher rate of perpetrating sex crimes than males who identify as men.

DrudgeJedd · 08/03/2018 19:45

Hmm, just read that report about the woman with the garrote; punched a window out & ran away, police needed reinforcements to restrain her & she kicked the police car window out on the way to the station.

LapdanceShoeshine · 09/03/2018 22:07

Haven’t RTFT, I don’t know if anyone’s linked to this, but pages & pages of documented hideousness committed by men, some before & some after identifying as trans women.

The anxiety is well-justified Sad

nounequalrights.com/information/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/The-Threat-to-Women-and-Girls-Illustrated-1.pdf

PencilsInSpace · 10/03/2018 01:58

BerkInBag - (2) The case board system in Scotland is primarily there to protect the rights of the self-declared trans person in line with the rights they are accorded under the 2004 GRA

Self-declared trans people do not have rights under the GRA 2004. They are protected from discrimination under the Equality Act. GRA only applies to those with a GRC.

Prisoners with a GRC are not subject to a gender reassignment case conference. Nobody will be checking if a TIM with a GRC is 'living permanently as a woman' - their birth cert says female so they go to the women's estate.

At the moment, to get a GRC you have to have been living as your preferred sex for 2 years in any case. That's one of the criteria that's being taken away. Sign a form >> get GRC >> get new birth cert >> legally female >> women's estate with no case conference and no questions asked.

Thus even if the case boards were done away with, high risk MTF prisoners would “ be dealt with as for any other person in custody posing a risk”. To do otherwise could be considered to infringe the human rights of other prisoners.

For those with a GRC this only applies in exceptional circumstances, where a woman with a similar risk profile would also be moved to the male estate. There's case law that says attempted rape is not enough to keep a TIM with a GRC out of female prison on the grounds of custody risk.

Basically, the new style GRC would be an easy way into the female estate for those who can't even satisfy the incredibly lenient Scottish case board.

DoctorW · 10/03/2018 08:23

Berkinthebag
(4) Given all of the above – any future change to the GRA that formalises self-declaration will, as far as I can see, broadly result in BUSINESS AS USUAL in the Scottish prison system.

It is true that the Scottish system is more likely that E&W to move someone without a GRC into a women's prison. But I still stand by the fact that it is discretionary and the case board can decide yes or no.

A male prisoner without a GRC is legally male so they will considered for transfer to the women's estate as someone protected by the protected characteristic of gender reassignment in the Equality Act. They will be supported to live in role as a women but this can be in a male or female prison.

A male prisoner with a GRC is legally female so they will be automatically eligible for transfer to women's estate because they must be treated for all purposes as female under the Gender recognition Act 2004.

Debbie6666 · 11/03/2018 11:08

A male prisoner with a GRC is legally female so they will be automatically eligible for transfer to women's estate because they must be treated for all purposes as female under the Gender recognition Act 2004.

That does not prevent them or any other female prisoner being placed in the male estate if the risk profile to other prisoners makes such a transfer justified.

They are indeed treated as any other female prisoner but that also includes the possibility of being held in the male estate in accordance with PSO4800

So whilst they are automatically eligible for transfer they are NOT entitled to be automatically transferred.

There is a significant difference between eligible and entitled

PSI-17-2016-PI-16-2016-AI-13-2016-The-Care-and-Management-of-Transgender-Offenders.docx
There may be exceptional cases where it is necessary to refuse a transfer to the female estate for a transgender (male to female) prisoner with a GRC. This can only happen if the risk concerns surrounding the prisoner are sufficiently high that other women with an equivalent security profile would also be held in the male estate. If a transfer is refused, the prisoner will be a female prisoner in the male estate. She must be held separately and according to a female prisoner regime as set out in PSO 4800. This provision exists as the male estate has greater capacity to manage prisoners who pose an exceptionally high risk to others.

PencilsInSpace · 11/03/2018 11:32

And from the paragraph directly above the one you quoted:

In a judicial review of September 2009 (R (on the application of AB) v Secretary of State for Justice [2009] EWHC 2220 (Admin)) the judge held that a male to female transsexual prisoner with a GRC had to be transferred to the female estate even though one of her index offences was attempted rape of a woman.

So fuck this shit.

DullAndOld · 11/03/2018 11:34

'phobic'..'phobia' - these words are just used to shut down debate.

Flomper · 11/03/2018 11:48

Like cis, I refuse to recognise the term transphobic anymore because it is another incorrect and meaningless term (being gender critical and worried about men trying to dominate women isnt the same as having a phobia) and, as others have said, its used to opress and shutdown debate.

Debbie6666 · 11/03/2018 18:42

PencilsInSpace

What the paragraph means though is that they have to be transferred to the female prison population and as such they have the risk assessments and accommodations based on that.

But that means they could still be housed in a male prison the same as any other female prisoner if the female accommodation does not have the facilities for protection of both them and other inmates. However this would happen as a female inmate in accordance with PSO 4800 rather than just leaving them in or putting them there as a male with the male inmates.

The GRC means they are entitled to be treated as a female not that they are entitled to be in with the other female prisoners. They are just eligible for that, subject to the risk assessment the same as everyone else.

Its nothing like just filling out a form and HMPS hands are tied.

PencilsInSpace · 11/03/2018 22:30

What it means is the bar is very low. What it means is that there are rapists in women's prisons. This is not OK.

MyFavouriteChameleon · 11/03/2018 23:36

Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.
Really? Or is that your highly personal view, based solely on a sort of feeling you have....?

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 11/03/2018 23:40

twitter.com/ZewoHewo/status/972956065783472128

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 11/03/2018 23:46

@MyFavouriteChameleon

Its not a feeling. There is data. Some of it estimated. Not registering birth never mind birth sex in many countries makes it hard to count. But lets just sneer eh? Bill and Melinda Gates are spending their money on registering girls. More sneering about that? You can't beat a good sneer at violence can you?

An estimated 120 million girls globally have experienced rape or sexual violence. For most girls, this happens between the ages of 15 and 19, but it is also reported by girls much younger.

plan-international.org/ending-violence/gender-based-violence

Debbie6666 · 11/03/2018 23:53

PencilsInSpace

What the first paragraph I posted means is for the second time in this thread DoctorW has been shown to be misrepresenting the situation. The paragraph you posted does not change that as its still subject to risk assessments and safeguarding.

MyFavouriteChameleon · 11/03/2018 23:55

Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.
Really? Or is that your highly personal view, based solely on a sort of feeling you have....?

Its not a feeling. There is data. Some of it estimated. Not registering birth never mind birth sex in many countries makes it hard to count. But lets just sneer eh?
No one is denying that there is violence in the world, or that some of it is directed at women, but just making up statements and stating them as fact (that male violence is the biggest human rights crisis) isn't helpful to your argument, surely you see that?

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 12/03/2018 00:00

Well yes, shut up with your unhelpful arguments. You sound like India Willoughby.
www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/7ve5io/karen_ingala_smith_counting_dead_women_debates/

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