If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

[midgebabe]

I find it very unfair to be accused of transphobia when I am not actually worried about trans people as such. I am worried about how bad men might abuse legislative changes . I am worried about giving bad men more opportunities . About how people might be able to pretend to be trans. I suspect this is a threat to both biological women and trans women.

If you don't believe that 'trans women are women' is that transphobic?

Of course. These transwomen are women and just as valid as any woman and should have complete sccess to any female domain.

I'm not saying there's a wrong or right here btw just that it seems a lot more 'concentrated' on MN

I think that is genuinely because any meaningful debate isn't being allowed anywhere else. It's inevitable that MN has become a safe space for women (and indeed transwomen) want to discuss this, and just even to ask questions.

I've said it before but it bears repetition, it is absolutely shocking that women are being forced to meet in secret in the 21st century. What is so scary about women talking?

Can some one tell me why it is OK for my teenage sons to be the victim of a predatory man in a changing room but not my teenage daughters?

Or why it's OK for a vulnerable male 18 year to be in prison with violent offenders but not a vulnerable female?

Sadly, routine abuse of vulnerable people is endemic in our society, for example straight men exploiting their power (Harvey Weinstein, Oxfam scandal, bosses in large corporations where victims are paid off to stay silent), paedophiles working with young people (catholic church, sports coaches, any number of schools youth clubs and scout groups in the 70s).

Statistically your vulnerable young daughter is at more risk from the trusted adults adults around her than from some random trans person.

I just don't get the level of obsession and hatred.

I don't really care about anything on the Internet that much to report for deletion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to discuss it.

This post was specifically questioning transphobia on MN, which is what piqued my interest.

I understand their are potential safeguarding issues that people are concerned about and that's what I have learned from reading the threads before I stopped, it's nothing something that would have ever crossed my mind personally. I don't think that transgender is the downfall of the female race though.

And no, I don't personally know the law.

Statistically your vulnerable young daughter is at more risk from the trusted adults adults around her than from some random trans person.

Trans man or trans woman ?

Because transmen are biological females. Trans women are biological males who retain the same patterns of male violence as other males.

Can some one tell me why it is OK for my teenage sons to be the victim of a predatory man in a changing room but not my teenage daughters?

Neither are okay.

HTH.

But are all men intrinsically violent? I really don't believe so. Don't we all know men who don't conform to the stereotype - some of whom have been bullied terribly by the ones who do conform?

And I absolutely get that some trans people have behaved appallingly - but there is something about being told you don't have the right to exist which might not bring out the the best in people.

It seems to me some people have declared war on the trans community and then act shocked when they turn abusive.

*Can some one tell me why it is OK for my teenage sons to be the victim of a predatory man in a changing room but not my teenage daughters?

Or why it's OK for a vulnerable male 18 year to be in prison with violent offenders but not a vulnerable female?*

It’s not ok - and i have sons, no daughters. Not sure what your point is though. What would you suggest?

I don’t believe anyone has said all men are intrinsically violent. However. The vast majority of all violence and 98% of sexual violence is committed by males.

But are all men intrinsically violent?

...then act shocked when they turn abusive.

Answered your own question there.

"And I absolutely get that some trans people have behaved appallingly - but there is something about being told you don't have the right to exist which might not bring out the the best in people.

It seems to me some people have declared war on the trans community and then act shocked when they turn abusive."

No one is saying that trans people don't have the right to exist. Can you find any posts on any threads here that argue this?

You have this arse about face. Transactivists aren't reacting justifiably to hate, they are the aggressors who want to have the absolute right to do whatever they want for validation, and women's rights and protections are considered irrelevant. Then these activists get beyond angry when women politely say no.

And I absolutely get that some trans people have behaved appallingly - but there is something about being told you don't have the right to exist which might not bring out the the best in people.

Nobody on here has said trans people don't have the right to exist.

Again, the problem is not with trans people. The problem we have is with self identification.

Self identification meant the lovely Danielle Muscato here was allowed to stay in a women's shelter because they identify as a woman.

Bishybarnybee I thinknthat's the best example of whataboutery I've seen in a long time!

If you want to campaign to protect vulnerable males from predatory men, go ahead. No one is stopping you.

But the focus of women here is protecting vulnerable gorls and women.

We won't protect men by putting women at risk.

You argue that self ID makes it easier for predators to reach girls.
But by this argument, they already have unfettered access to boys. Which we deal with by making predatory behaviour illegal and training our children to be aware of it, report it, develop a bit of streetwise-ness, look out for each other etc.

Which is what we need to do for our boys and our girls.

The trans issue is a red herring. Most assaults on our children will not come fro the trans community.

The logical end to the argument that Bishy makes is that all sex segregation is cancelled immediately, becasue women and girls are at the moment allowed some space away from boys and men, and this isn't fair as predatory men do attack other men and boys, so to make it fair they need to be given access to women and girls as well...

Is that about right?

I don't think anyone thinks male violence against anyone is OK, not sure where that idea comes from, but to throw our hands up in the air and say well in that case let's pull all the protections that we do have seems a little, erm, off.

Maybe some people think that if violent men are given better access to women and girls, it will make things safer for other men and boys?

I'm not sure it works like that to be honest, sorry.

"And I absolutely get that some trans people have behaved appallingly - but there is something about being told you don't have the right to exist which might not bring out the the best in people. "

Thing is, TRAs are telling women that they don't exist. I am being told that there is no difference between Lily Madigan and me. I am being told that if I want to distinguish myself from people like LM, I have to call myself a cis woman.

So yes, some of us are reacting badly. Although I don't think it's that bad to be objective in how we speak. LM is a man who identifies as trans, and therefore wears women's clothing. This is a fact, not transphobia.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad

Would that be the same Danielle Muscato who invited women who had an issue with him sharing space with vulnerable women to suck his "lady dick"?

Or words to that effect...

Most assaults on our children will not come fro the trans community.

Again nobody has said it will.

The trans issue is a red herring. Most assaults on our children will not come fro the trans community.

As is the point being made by every single person on here who is countering accusations of transphobia.

You're literally arguing the same point...

Can some one tell me why it is OK for my teenage sons to be the victim of a predatory man in a changing room but not my teenage daughters?

Can you tell us who has said that it is OK for anyone to be the victim of a predatory man?

Sadly, routine abuse of vulnerable people is endemic in our society

Yes, I agree.

Statistically your vulnerable young daughter is at more risk from the trusted adults adults around her than from some random trans person.

Sigh...Don't you understand that we are NOT saying that 'random trans people' pose a risk. We are talking about PREDATORY MEN, such as the ones you listed above:

for example straight men exploiting their power and paedophiles working with young people.

One of the unforeseen consequences of the self-ID proposals and measures being put into place is that it makes it far easier for these predatory men to access women and children in a state of undress, or when otherwise vulnerable. Trans really doesn't come into it.

We oppose self-ID. We oppose misogyny. We oppose violent, abusive and predatory men, no matter how they are dressed or what they call themselves.

We do not oppose trans people.

hairyballtheorum THAT. EXACTLY what you said.
(In fact I have screen shotted for my future reference)

The op was about people pretending to be trans to disguise an alterior motive. My response is I think this is (removing internet trolls from the equation) a largely a unfounded fear. Mumsnet would make it seem like there were men hiding in every women’s toilet the country. The risk of self ID is that a very small minority of people could abuse it, it’s a small but serious risk so I don’t agree with changing the law for people to be able to self ID. One area where there is a real life risk is in prisons, which I know from close contact with someone who works in the sector.

Debate on mumsnet and the internet generally either boils down to people making the same sensible points over and over again, or people trolling each other then getting irate about it. The latter makes it almost impossible to sift through. If I can’t be arsed with it and I’m someone who essentially agrees with the general view on here how do people expect to change opinions? A Twitter war is not the way to find sense in a complex debate.