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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Break it down for me?

972 replies

TortiousTortoise · 20/01/2018 22:16

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (been trying to talk to my husband about it and am struggling to articulate it).

I feel so awkward writing about this as I definitely don't want to come across as sounding horrible about transpeople, I just want to understand.

Also there are a lot of acronyms being thrown about. Can anyone help me out?

OP posts:
ATeardropExplodes · 22/01/2018 16:23

assets2.hrc.org/files/assets/resources/Trans_Safer_Sex_Guide_FINAL.pdf

This is how they manipulate language.

You thought you had a vagina?

No lass.

You have a front hole.

Men have vaginas after surgery.

Page 5.

Deadlylampshade · 22/01/2018 16:25

It’s way more fun out here anyway. We have cats.

PencilsInSpace · 22/01/2018 17:21

This reply has been deleted

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Theowlinthepussyhat · 22/01/2018 17:21

Copied directly from page 5 of that 'publication':

^^DICK: We use this word to describe external genitals. Dicks come
in all shapes and sizes and can belong to people of all genders.
FRONT HOLE: We use this word to talk about internal genitals,
sometimes referred to as a vagina. A front hole may self-lubricate,
depending on age and hormones.
STRAPLESS: We use this word to describe the genitals of trans
women who have not had genital reconstruction (or “bottom
surgery”), sometimes referred to as a penis.
VAGINA: We use this word to talk about the genitals of trans
women who have had bottom surgery.

Don’t assume that every person you meet—trans or otherwise—will use or understand these words. In most cases, the best thing you can do is ask which words a person uses to describe
their body.

Remember: Our bodies are our own to name and use.

That's nice dear Hmm. In that case, I have a vagina, y'know, because that's the correct medical term for it.

Jesus wept, there's either a glitch in the matrix, or I've suddenly found myself in Orwell's 1984.

Theowlinthepussyhat · 22/01/2018 17:22

Sorry, italics fail. Blush

PencilsInSpace · 22/01/2018 17:28

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Datun · 22/01/2018 18:18

Thanks pencils.

It's been my general understanding that autogynephiles don't tend to have bottom surgery.

That it's more prevalent amongst men with gender dysphoria.

Do you know of any studies?

Don't go googling for me, I can do it. I just wondered if you had any at your fingertips.

PencilsInSpace · 22/01/2018 18:34

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Datun · 22/01/2018 19:41

Totally agree.

Datun · 22/01/2018 19:48

Add to this. I would love to see it go viral.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146926-I-am-this-woman

lessthanwise · 22/01/2018 20:07

Hello. I've been reading this post (on and off) and some of the linked articles for most of the day (maternity leave, still pregnant!) and was just wondering about something.

Some of you have said that AGPs potentially make up a majority of TIMs and that you believe AGPs are usually those that are responsible for a lot of the aggro (ie they're the aggressive activists etc) but from what I see in the media this doesn't appear to be the case.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, this is something that I've only really become fully interested in today. I've previously had my concerns and being pregnant I've worried about the impact of all this on my child when reading increasingly bizarre tales.

What I am saying/asking is that a lot of the bizarre tales I have happened upon seem to be the other kind of TIMs (I've forgotten what they're called! Homosexual transsexuals?). For example Munroe Bergdorf, the models that have been featured in Vogue and Playboy and on women's marches. Potentially Paris Lees? I'm of course not 100% certain about the sexual orientation/identities of these people but they seem to fit the profile for the homosexual trans people (those with real gender dysphoria from childhood rather than fetishistic adult men - presuming Bruce Jenner is in this category?).

Are they just as "bad" as AGPs? Wasn't it Munroe Bergdorf who said that women on the women's march shouldn't talk about their reproductive organs. It strikes me that both types of TIM are as censorious as each other. Both are encroaching on women's rights, women's spaces etc.

MiMi78 · 22/01/2018 20:29

If you really want to confuse yourself OP, look up 'genderqueer', 'pangender' 'trigender'.
I'm still no closer to understanding what genderqueer is, maybe no one knows...

BeyondWW · 22/01/2018 20:41

They're difficult to quantify lessthan as there can be an element of agp that are so drawn in to the idea of themselves as a sexual female being, that not only do they actually have bottom surgery, but they then (following transition) go on to seek out sex with men (despite being heterosexual males) as the ultimate validation of themselves in that female subordinated role.

Datun · 22/01/2018 20:55

lessthanwise

I agree. And I've found it somewhat confusing too.

I should Imagine that those drawn to political statements are just after the power.

India Willoughby was an odd one for me. Marriage, transitioned late, so fits the profile of AGP. But, looks incredibly effeminate when seen as a man, prior to transition.

A woman on here who is married to an AGP said the first characteristic is lying.

When you go on everyday sites, like Twitter and Reddit, it is the autogynephiles who are pushing it.

So yes, I agree that the traditional lines are being blurred.

SonicBoomBoom · 22/01/2018 21:12

I consider myself pretty well clued up on this madness now, thanks to this board. I think I peaktransed about a year or two ago, but this thread has been so illuminating and informative. Thank you. Especially to Datun.

CoolCarrie · 22/01/2018 21:38

Datsun, your posts are bloody excellent round up! Thank you for these, now dh & ds can read the facts for themselves, and see what I have been telling them about!

Ekphrasis · 22/01/2018 21:52

India is an odd one. Got my piss boiling over the Jennie Murray woman's hour stuff which continued on CBB but I've occasionally found her saying things I'd agree with. I think she'd agree with AWS being women only, but as she could be included no doubt. Very narcissistic though.

Anlaf · 22/01/2018 21:57

One astonishing thing has been the use of actual violence to shut women up when they do stuff like hold a talk, or give out leaflets on the law changes on gender:

Speakers corner www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3036489-Woman-attacked-by-transactivists-at-speakers-corner-part-deux
(lots of helpful links in this - but looks like the first thread went poof, sadly.)

Janice Turner of the Times on that Speakers corner incident www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3034856-Janice-Turner-article-in-todays-Times

Women hand out leaflets at political bookfair, are shouted at, intimidated, chased, another woman (Helen Steel!) surrounded for an hour by 30 transactivists who shout "ugly Terf, fucking terf, scum, bitch, fascist" www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3072429-Two-more-women-attacked-by-trans-activists

And as Datun says, meetings to discuss the potential Gender Recognition Act law changes have to find new venues when transactivists target the venues (including in one case, saying they had called the police on a library!). And there is the threat of real violence when the talks go ahead.

So it's very hard to talk about this in public - because people may shout "bigot" at you with no further discussion. And the same goes for much of mumsnet: pro-trans-activists just shout "HATE" and then run away.

If you have time for a good read, these threads over Christmas were one of the few times the other side stuck around for a conversation:
one
two
three

Giving yourself permission to think critically on this is so important - you're not a hateful bigot for questioning and exploring. And disagreement is not hate.

Ekphrasis · 22/01/2018 22:02

I think there's a lot of narcissism actually, perhaps crossing over to and blurring the lines of AGP.

We live in such a visual social media led age. Women are objectified everywhere. Women are mighty etc. I think behind some of it is an extreme rejection of masculinity but it all goes wonky for some and if they're a narcissist it fuels the objectification of themselves as those women.

If they truly understood being a woman, they'd respect and support women's rights, as the likes of Miranda Yardley and a few others I've found on twitter do.

Datun · 22/01/2018 22:53

India is an odd one. Got my piss boiling over the Jennie Murray woman's hour stuff which continued on CBB but I've occasionally found her saying things I'd agree with.

Me too. She desperately tries to distance herself from the AGPs, which makes me think she can't be one.

Maybe just a lot of internalised homophobia.

Sure is a dominant sexist though.

Stickystickstick · 22/01/2018 22:54

Can I go back to the “bottom surgery” thing. I take it they’re not talking about arses...

Why can’t they at least use adult terminology to discuss surgery or lack thereof. It’s like when women refer to their front bottom instead of vulva/fanny/vagina (even)/ cunt. Makes me want to scream. Call a dick a dick ffs

Datun · 22/01/2018 22:56

Yes, it's very misleading. Probably intentionally.

Or maybe the word penis is triggering.

TortiousTortoise · 22/01/2018 23:34

Thank you everyone for contributing, the comment about the matrix is spot on I think.

I haven't been able to read everything but just getting to ask questions in a safe space has been good.

OP posts:
BetsyM00 · 23/01/2018 09:20

Just read through the thread and wanted to add to the statistics/sources.

Unforunateseriesofevents - You've said that 85% of TIM keep their male genitalia. Whilst I don't doubt this I wondered if you might have a source for it?

From the SAGES factsheet sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html "As of 2015, about 5% of trans-identifying people in the UK had sought medical treatment. Eventually, about 20% are expected to do so."
This comes from the evidence presented by the pro-trans organisation GIRES to the government consultation in 2015.

So a minimum of 80% of trans people are completely unmodified - no surgery, no hormones!

Datun - We can still reserve compassion for men with gender dysphoria, who, although not helping feminists with their dismantling of gender, are nonetheless being caught in the crossfire, purely because they have a disorder.
I would be exceptionally interested in knowing the numbers.
I started thinking that the AGP individuals formed a minority, but that thinking has changed.

Paul Dirks posted this video the other day on Twitter:
If we ignore the God can save you message at the end, the stats he reports are that only 1 in 30 of TIMs have gender dysphoria.
So, perhaps surprisingly, it would seem AGP is very much the majority.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 23/01/2018 09:27

Bottom surgery makes me think of a nice, pleasingly invisible hole being fashioned out of thin air and being usable for sex with no complications and no nastiness.

It doesn't bring to mind healthy genitals being cut off, a penis either being inverted or a piece of colon being used to create a neo-vagina which either potentially has issues with hair growth or bad smells, which might need dilating to be painful and which might be botched leading to a neo-clitoris getting infected and dying.

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