My feed

to access all these features

Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Break it down for me?

972 replies

TortiousTortoise · 20/01/2018 22:16

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (been trying to talk to my husband about it and am struggling to articulate it).

I feel so awkward writing about this as I definitely don't want to come across as sounding horrible about transpeople, I just want to understand.

Also there are a lot of acronyms being thrown about. Can anyone help me out?

OP posts:
irretating · 21/01/2018 22:01

The end of Gender: Revolution not reform.

This is a good video to watch to get an understanding of why some liberal feminists are so supportive of trans rights. It also contrasts liberal feminism interpretations of gender to radical feminist interpretation.

TortiousTortoise · 22/01/2018 07:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

TortiousTortoise · 22/01/2018 07:51


Does GNC = gender non conforming?
GRC= gender recognition certificate?

OP posts:
Deadlylampshade · 22/01/2018 08:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Badgerthebodger · 22/01/2018 09:38

You are correct with your GNC and GRC

TortiousTortoise · 22/01/2018 09:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Datun · 22/01/2018 10:12

Yes, peak trans is meant to invoke the image of a hill.

So people might start in the foothills wondering what on earth women are talking about, why is it so important?

Then they begin to question. Still not sure, because up until now, they didn't see any problem. Why not be nice? What's the big deal?

Then they start to understand the concepts. Sometimes they still waver, because this all feels like it's happening somewhere else. Online, or not really affecting them. And anyway, feminists have a downer on men, so it's unsurprising they're cross. And, honestly, I know a transwoman and she's absolutely delightful.

Then they read about a rapist being transferred to a female prison. So what, one news story. Are you saying all transwomen are rapists?!

Then they read about the woman who asked for a female HCP and got a man. Oh well, a little uncomfortable, but still, what's the big deal? Then they read that the woman was called a transphobic bigot for objecting.

Hmmm, well that's a bit off. I may not mind a man doing my smear test, but I can understand women who do. It's not really bigoted.

At this point you have advanced a few hundred yards up the hill.

Then a sports story is mentioned on here. A mediocre male weightlifter suddenly winning awards by competing as a woman.

Oh, whatever, I don't like sport anyway.

Then another one. Then someone in cycling, fell running, roller derby, football, cricket, golf.

Then suddenly it appears to be less about sport, and more about women being disadvantaged.

The crampons come out and you advance another few hundred yards up the hill.

Then you notice that a 19-year-old boy has been elected as labour's women's officer. Oh well, he probably feels like a woman inside. That's gender dysphoria, right?

Except he starts to compile a secret list of all women who disagree with him to get them ousted from the party. Despite his remit being to include as many women as possible in the party. Claims he can get pregnant in that biology is irrelevant.

Then you start to notice intimidating tactics against women. Meetings to discuss the upcoming law change are targetted, a 60-year-old woman is hit at speakers corner. Venues pull out, peoples jobs are threatened, they are doxxed online, they are reported to the police for disagreeing.

You scramble up towards the peak of the hill.

Then someone tells you about autogynephilia, and all the men's rights activists flocking to the trans movement. You realise that it is actually true that the government is legislating to legitimise a fetish.

You peak. You look back down the hill and can't believe you ever stood at the bottom.

Then you read of 2 transwomen, one of whom has been asked to speak at the Women's March. Who claims that being treated like a piece of meat by men is sexy and objectification is hot. And because they are woman, they speak on behalf of women. And the other one who claims that women are allowed to go to the Women's March, as long as they don't talk about their reproductive systems. You know, the very basis of women's oppression. Because it excludes men. The ones who are doing the oppressing.

And you peak all over again.

This keeps going.

You look at the handful of men with gender dysphoria and how to include them, and wish, with all your heart, that it could be that simple again.

Theowlinthepussyhat · 22/01/2018 10:39

Thanks to the OP for this thread, I've been lurking for a while as well.
I've name changed for this, as I am trying to prevent myself from being identified. My thanks also go to Datun and all the other posters on here who've made me realise that I'm peak trans too.

I have two young female family members, and the thought that they could be followed into a toilet by the likes of Danielle Muscato if this legislation goes through, fills me with horror.

MyYoniFromHull · 22/01/2018 10:43

Love you

That's all

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 22/01/2018 10:48

"Be warned, the more you learn, the more you will drink"

OMG, that's so true

MyYoniFromHull · 22/01/2018 10:50

Women and girls aren't oppressed because they feel girly /feminine, but because they have female bodies

fgm doesn't happen to people who ' feel ' like they're girls

Female babies and fetuses don't disappear because they identify as female

If woman is just a feeling, a costume, that men can adopt whenever it suits them, then it becomes a meaningless word. We can't measure male violence against women and girls, if woman means nothing.

bonnymnemonic · 22/01/2018 11:14

Great thread! Am I brave enough to share on my FB? There are a few people there who would really benefit from reading this, but I'm scared that there will be others who will not take the time to read it and immediately dismiss me as a TERF or bigot.

averylongtimeago · 22/01/2018 11:28

The very fact that so many are scared to share this sort of stuff on FB or in their real names shows just how wrong it is.

Datun · 22/01/2018 11:41


This is the conflict. We need more women to stop being afraid to admit they're worried, and the ones who disagree to be open to discussion.

So the way to do that is to go public, right?

But at exactly the same time, you will get those who disagree, genuinely believing that you are bigoted and wrong.

It'll be a huge slap in the face for you, but equally, for them. Because they don't get it.

So that's the dichotomy. You can't inform without exposing yourself. And unless you inform, you can't garner support. Or help women. This is not just some ideological disagreement. It is actually damaging women.

In real life, if you put this on Facebook, you might well lose friends. If you're prepared to do that, then fine. But be aware it might be the friends that you really did not expect to lose.

The flipside, is that you might have a massive 'relief fest' amongst you all.

The only thing I would say is that this issue really is not on the radar of the general public.

They tend to fall into two groups, OMG you're a transphobic bigot, or the much more earthy, if someone has a dick they're a bloke.

Most people are just uninformed and go with a gut feel.

It might be better to hang around here and fb post an actual news story, when they come up. Like a rapist being transferred to female prison. Or something equally irrefutable in its unfairness.

Coming out instantly gender critical might create more of a backlash.

We shouldn't have to lead people up the garden path so they can see it for themselves, but unfortunately the marketing of the trans agenda has made it look like gay rights and general right on, left-wing inclusiveness.

It's also useful to keep reading, so that the words trip off your tongue. Sometimes, when you start out, you will get pushback and simply lack the well trodden, evidential arguments that you eventually gain purely by reading.

LangCleg · 22/01/2018 11:50

It might be better to hang around here and fb post an actual news story, when they come up. Like a rapist being transferred to female prison. Or something equally irrefutable in its unfairness.

Yes. I think this is the best way if you are feeling worried or nervous.

Datun · 22/01/2018 11:55

The other way to do it is to be a bit sneaky. I know we shouldn't have to, but there you go.

So post a story and go a bit mock shock, faux surprise.

This doesn't seem right! What's going on? Why is trans such a hot topic? I don't get it.

It's a good way to temperature check the feeling on your Facebook.

A counter intuitive part of this is that when people actually disagree, it's far more useful. Because the ideology doesn't stand up to scrutiny, disagreement can expose that quite quickly.

So if you get the transwomen are women argument, which you might well, you could just say I don't get it. If men can be women, what's the definition of woman? Isn't it little worrying that we are changing the very definition of who we are?

Anyone 'in the know' will recognise that instantly as a feminist argument. Which might mean you have given yourself away. But, nonetheless, it is the ultimate argument.

If you redefine the word woman to include men, the word woman is meaningless. If the word woman is meaningless, rights assigned to women are also meaningless.

But asking questions is a good one. What do you mean by that? How are they women? Why do we have sex segregation in the first place?

Gawd. It's stuck me afresh that we really shouldn't have to do this!

(It's also worth noting, because it will come up almost instantly, that transwomen commit sexual and violent crime at exactly the same rate as men. In fact, slightly higher. And that 85 percent of transwomen do not have genital surgery. And many remain attracted to women.).

ATeardropExplodes · 22/01/2018 12:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Datun · 22/01/2018 12:14

[Post edited to remove quoted deleted post]

This is absolutely true. But in the interests of fairness, I do feel I need to point out, again, the two types of transwomen.

The above is an example of an autogynephile.

A homosexual transsexual wouldn't dream of doing that.

If you see a lot of stuff written by autogynephiles, it sends your blood pressure absolutely soaring. Not just because the fetish is itself misogynistic, (it relies on seeing women as weak victims - see forced feminisation, cissification), but because they have hijacked the transsexual narrative, they claim they are actually women. It's infuriating. A woman is not a man who fetishises women.

But, you need to keep in mind, that this is only one side of transgenderism.

We can still reserve compassion for men with gender dysphoria, who, although not helping feminists with their dismantling of gender, are nonetheless being caught in the crossfire, purely because they have a disorder.

I would be exceptionally interested in knowing the numbers.

I started thinking that the AGP individuals formed a minority, but that thinking has changed.

I now believe they are more in the majority.

But even if they are not, they are the ones who are pushing the agenda and have politicised the entire issue.

Ekphrasis · 22/01/2018 12:17

Op, I think I've learnt by hanging around here for around 18 months.

Didn't dare post at first, didn't get any of it. But had a feeling I knew something wasn't right here and there. And having a son meant I was suddenly confused about how society treats young boys.

Pink blue threads and Riley Dennis helped the penny really drop. Miranda Yardley, Magdalena, and peach yogurt clarified what I already subconsciously understood.

Be warned; it's like the Matrix. I suddenly see everything as clear as day and it's sometimes hard to bite ones tongue.

Thank you Datun for the fb advice; I was about to post a q about how the hell to respond to that Chanel 4 thing doing the rounds with Charlotte Clymer in it.

I'm still sometimes confused and not always sure of how to verbalise things.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 22/01/2018 12:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Ekphrasis · 22/01/2018 12:22

Oh yes. I agree and have said before, thank god for Datun. ❤️

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 22/01/2018 12:23

Great thread. One thing that hasn't been touched on much is the effect this is having on children. That's what bothers me most. Good places to read up about that are: Lily's daughter declared she was transgender and Lily worked very hard on getting to grips with transgenderism and eventually managed to support her daughter to a point where she was no longer self-IDing as a boy and now accepts that she is a girl. Lily's blog and Tweets are right on the money as far as I am concerned. She did a blog post recently which is not for the faint of heart but frankly I think if more people really understood what is involved in taking hormones and having surgery and how poor the results of surgery often are I think they would be even more sceptical of what this is all about. This is part 2 (part 1 was about adults): This is US-based website for parents and others sceptical about the transgender trend. The comments are often as interesting as the articles. They've had contributions by professionals working in the field.

This was an interesting article in The Times the other day about the Tavistock Clinic which runs the only NHS gender clinic in England and Wales. A consultant psychologist there expresses some concern about the rising trend of referrals and how some schools are taking a child's gender non-conforming behaviour/statements at face value and moving immediately to call them by different pronouns and so on, even if the parents are not involved. As many people have said discussing this, there is no other issue in education where professionals guarantee to a child that they won't talk to the parents and no other self-destructive behaviour where the child would be supported unquestioningly, even helped, to continue with it.

Ekphrasis · 22/01/2018 12:28

I need some to explain queer to me. Confused

ATeardropExplodes · 22/01/2018 12:31

Also, the effect that getting a GRC will have on the people that have the GRC.

They will no longer be called for screening, or checked for male/female trait issues when an emergency happens. Biological males having heart attacks present differently to biological females having heart attacks. This will actually harm the very people it is meant to 'free' and it is the NHS that will be sued for not treating them appropriately, not the doctors who originally signed off any GRC.

nauticant · 22/01/2018 12:33

But, how come they can chant "when queer rights come under attack, what do we do? We fight right back!" And labour women can't?

Because they are the most oppressed people ever™ while women have so much privilege they don't know what to do with it (so they end up using it for EVIL).

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.