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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Break it down for me?

972 replies

TortiousTortoise · 20/01/2018 22:16

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (been trying to talk to my husband about it and am struggling to articulate it).

I feel so awkward writing about this as I definitely don't want to come across as sounding horrible about transpeople, I just want to understand.

Also there are a lot of acronyms being thrown about. Can anyone help me out?

OP posts:
ATeardropExplodes · 23/01/2018 10:50


thanks for that Geronimo.
BeyondWW · 23/01/2018 10:59

I tend to use bottom surgery, even though I hate it's vagueness and twee-ness. But "vaginoplasty" is the "correct" term afaik and is actually less accurate.

I am a woman, I have had reconstructive vaginoplasty due to prolapse - that is what vaginoplasty is. Not turning a penis inside out.

It's offensive to me to have the treatment of my biologically female exclusive problem coopted like that.

Geronimoleapinglizards · 23/01/2018 13:50

Blush Apologies Teardrop

TortiousTortoise · 24/01/2018 22:34

Sorry, another question, what's with the Spartacus thing?

OP posts:
AreYouOrHaveYouEverBeenATERF · 24/01/2018 22:46

Spartacus happened when MNHQ started cracking down on posters saying so-called transphobic stuff - and banned a few people who eg. said there's no such thing as a female penis, or I will not call Caitlyn Jenner a woman etc.

People went a bit crazy Grin and said well, if you ban them, you might as well ban me too - and there were a couple of 1000 post threads with people saying : I'm Spartacus, I don't believe transwomen are women etc.

MNetters basically demanded asked HQ nicely that MN should be a place to debate and discuss this issue - since everywhere else bans any debate at all.

Datun · 25/01/2018 00:31

Spartacus was a slave and gladiator during Roman times. He was involved in an uprising against the Roman military.

His story was made into a film.

In the film, the Romans, viewing a crowd, knew Spartacus was hiding amongst them.

So they said which one of you is Spartacus?

As far as I remember, he was just about to give himself when another slave said, I am Spartacus.

Then another slave said the same. And another.

Until the entire crowd (including Spartacus) was standing up and shouting I AM SPARTACUS.

The idea being that if hundreds of them said it, they couldn't all be arrested.

Thereby showing their solidarity to Spartacus and foiling the Romans. Who went off in a miff.

So when mumsnet was threatening to ban posters for saying things like men can't be women, somebody said I am Spartacus.

Cue a thread that ran to an immediate thousand posts full of I am Spartacus.

It was awesome.

Datun · 25/01/2018 00:32

Especially as no one had any idea quite how many Spartacus's has been lurking.

MarSeeAh · 25/01/2018 00:40

It was the Spartacus thread that led me to Mumsnet, as word of what was happening here spread to the Gender Critical Sub-Reddits that I was on.

ReappearingWoman · 25/01/2018 00:40

I got a bit misty eyed there Datun, just remembering from the posts describing our Spartacus moment Smile it really was awesome 😎

Datun · 25/01/2018 01:13

If you google 'I am Spartacus Mumsnet' and get past the first page, you'll see the dozens of sites and media outlets that picked it up at the time.

It really did go viral.

And I'm still Spartacus.

And there are a lot more of us now!

AreYouOrHaveYouEverBeenATERF · 25/01/2018 05:51

It was awesome - nobody realised just how many MNetters were out there, wanting to discuss it. Just discuss it.

I can't remember exactly which happened first- but I think it was Caitlyn Jenner winning 'Woman of the Year' or that thread that peak trans'd me - and I've peaked even more since then.

AngryAttackKittens · 25/01/2018 05:54

Spartacus was how I found Mumsnet and I've been lurking ever since. Confirmed my faith that maybe the whole world hadn't lost its marbles after all.

thebewilderness · 25/01/2018 06:14

I think there is a third group of men joining the transgender movement. Abusive authoritarian misogynists. At the women's march they had to give time to males because reasons so in Vancouver a man who beats people for a living while costumed as a woman mansplained to the women that the trans identified males had to be centered because they could teach us how to clean ourselves properly and take selfies.
These are pure unadulterated misogynists who are eager to put on public displays of male dominance. That is what the men with the baseball bats are all about. Threatening to kill us if we do not submit.
Ten or fifteen years ago it was nothing like this.

thebewilderness · 25/01/2018 06:18

Governments are currently faced with a decision they do not have the expertise to address and so they are depending on questionable science for their advice. One mp said they only listen to people who claim there is no conflict between trans rights and women's rights. Obviously that one needs replaced. So my question is:
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?

InionEile · 25/01/2018 06:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

AngryAttackKittens · 25/01/2018 06:26

The TRAs actually come across as far more masculine than the average male, behaviorally speaking. They're also far more misogynistic than the average man. This is one of a list of obvious things that women are not permitted to notice.

And yeah, I have plenty of feminist objections to the belief system of the old school transsexuals but I wouldn't have been concerned about being alone in an enclosed space with most of them. The new breed of MRAs who claim to be women? No thanks.

AreYouOrHaveYouEverBeenATERF · 25/01/2018 06:30

Yes - without a doubt, the MRA movement have jumped on the bandwagon.

It suits their agenda. They hate things like AWS, women's spaces, women having refuges etc - so they are practically orgasmic about these things being threatened by the trans agenda.

You know - the sort that contact Race for Life and say "Why can't men join in your races??" - which is, in fact, exactly what Lily Madigan did before becoming Women's Officer. There is considerable evidence that Lily was an MRA type before transitioning - and at least one of the Twitter henchmen around Lily have an MRA feel to their tweets. Calling women slags, saying suck my dick etc.

They hate uppity women who stand up for women's rights - a lot of them don't particularly like transwomen either, as far as I can tell - and so would far rather they are called women than men.

AngryAttackKittens · 25/01/2018 06:41

Penis signs at the Women's March. Fantasies about beating up women. Rape metaphors presented as civil rights issues. Yep, those are the MRAs that we know and do not love.

It would be great if we could get to a point where most women felt OK about admitting that they know the things that they know. Strength in numbers helps - the more of us who say it the easier it is for the next women to say it.

thebewilderness · 25/01/2018 06:44

One of the things that quite shocked me was a survey they did on having sexual relations. After all these cotton ceiling years of roaring at lesbians that they are bigots if they won't date trans identified males, the survey said trans identified males report that they do not want to date trans identified males either. Criminy!

AngryAttackKittens · 25/01/2018 06:53

Well obviously it's different when they do it. Twas ever thus with the bepenised.

jennielou75 · 25/01/2018 06:57

I admit I find this all very difficult and terrifying. A close relative is going through the process of her daughter transitioning from male to female. It has been hell including bullying at school so she is now part time, suicide attempts because she is so unhappy in her body. I totally support her transition because she is going through counselling, has experienced the negativity that goes with it but still states it's the only way she can be the person she wants to be.

However I have also seen how a close friend has been attacked for expressing concerns over the GRA and the possible problems with it. I have read loads and sadly feel there will be many like me who feel concerns but are too scared to put these questions out there. I lived in a predominantly white area as a child. I then moved to London. I learnt so much from colleagues from different cultures by asking questions and having them answered. I so wish I and others could do the same on this issue.

speakout · 25/01/2018 07:06

Just marking place- lots of good links to read later.

TortiousTortoise · 25/01/2018 07:28

Thank you for the explanation of Spartacus, it's brilliant.

This stuff is on my mind a lot at the moment. I want to talk about it with people, but I'm not sure I'm brave enough yet!

The Self ID thing is really interesting I think and I don't understand why it is considered possible and logical that a man (or woman) can self identify as a woman (or man) however:

A white person cannot self ID as a black person
A fat person cannot self ID as a thin person
A sick person cannot self ID as a healthy person
A poor person cannot self ID as wealthy
A person who failed med school cannot self ID as someone qualified

To me it seems as though a man who self identifies as a woman is going to be given all the legal rights and benefits of being a woman (access to women only spaces an shortlists - presumably created in the first place because women require a safe space from men and are also marginalised so need specific shortlists/reserved spaces in order to have any representation at all), and not only this (it's more than enough!) but we have to actually believe that they are genetically female, that their penis is a female penis, and that womanhood is a generic, unimportant experience only defined by what you wear, how you look and how you present.

I have just woken up and am only on my first coffee, but is this actually where we are? I haven't even touched on the issue of children, that's more difficult to wrap my head around, but I am pretty confident that if this was going on when I was a teenager, there is a good chance that I'd have felt convinced that I was trans, or meant to be. As if growing up isn't hard enough.

For the trolls - I'm not transphobic. I respect your rights, but I want you to respect mine, too.

OP posts:
speakout · 25/01/2018 07:41

I grew up being ashamed because I felt a bit of a fraud as a girl. I felt that somehow some "maleness" had crept inside me and I could not admit it to anyone.
Despite my mother's attempts to teach me how to iron, bake and love frilly things I just couldn't get it, preferring to tinker under the bonnet the car with my Dad or plant potatoes.
This continued in my life, I did a science degree, worked in male dominated environments ( this seemed to be the case sadly in my area of expertise).
I am heterosexual have an OH and kids, and I now feel really strongly that all that guilt and shame I felt as a child and adolescent was such shit.
It wasn't me that was wrong it was the box that society had constructed for me.

And these men are making things much worse. They get their rocks off on the pigeon holes- probably think I am not woman enough because I don't do "lady things".

Makes my blood boil.

directsunlight · 25/01/2018 07:44

I missed the Spartacus threads, but I am Spartacus, too.

Op, you've come to the same conclusions I've come to.

I'm not transphobic. I have compassion for those individuals who suffer from gender dysphoria. However, it's my understanding that the proposed change in law will easily be manipulated by men who purposefully seek to intimidate or abuse women. This is unacceptable to me. I am also horrified and appalled at the use of drugs and surgery on young people and children. I have a friend who works with 16-24 year olds as a social worker and she is also gender critical. These young people are vulnerable to this ideology, and are being affirmed by the professionals who should be safe guarding them and helping them through it; instead they are being referred to reassignment clinics. It's a shocking travesty.

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