Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Of course there are transwomen who would protect spaces segregated for females. There’s at least one here, very prolific in the national media (regular and social too).

I understand she is somewhat shunned by the raging activists.

What is the happy medium between protecting sex-segregated females and those wishing to assert their access to it, despite being male-bodied? I can’t see a compromise?

Solidarity with you on this. I am a feminist, and a trans ally. There is room for everyone, and there is overwhelming evidence that the trans community are supporters of feminism, and are not trying to bring it down or sideline others.

As a political movement for social justice feminism has more to gain by accepting and celebrating trans people than it does by marginalising them.

MN has become an increasingly dangerous space for trans people, and for trans allies to navigate.

I have no doubt that we will be the only two with this opinion, so be prepared to get flamed shortly.

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

There are (Miranda Yardley being a particular prominent example but there are others). Unfortunately, they get shouted down and abused like the rest of us.

This is a subject which needs open discussion and debate but this is being closed down by abuse, threats and actual violence from a particularly vocal minority. I think women especially with suffer because of it but also the kinds of people most people think of when they imagine trans people ie traditional transsexuals with gender dysphoria who are being labelled 'truscum' and even (bizarrely) 'TERF' if they don't fall in line with the current ideology.

MN has become an increasingly dangerous space for trans people, and for trans allies to navigate.

Women talking on a parenting website isn’t dangerous.

Don’t be silly.

I would love for there to be a compromise, OP.

How to afford transwomen the rights they want and retain the based sex protection necessary for women, particularly vulnerable women and girls?

If you can crack it, you will be a heroine. Any ideas?

If you read the threads you will see reasonable trans people decrying the GRA and you will see feminists saying time and time again that they support everyone right to live in peace, to dress how they wish to, to change their names etc etc etc. But not to force through legislation that puts women and children in danger.

So yes there is a middle ground between TRAs and the 'ban gay marriage' crowd. It's right here.

My suggestion would be third space.

If it was at all possible to distinguish between a genuine transsexual and these Johnny Come Lately activists, that would also be a good compromise. But how you make that distinction, God only knows.

We used to have it, based on a courtesy system. But transactivists have scuppered that.

I think most FWR regulars would agree with the thrust of your OP, but unfortunately TRAs do not. They are the ones who label gender critical transmen and women as "truscum", for example.

I don't think any feminists are denying trans people's rights to exist, and to exist free of harrassment and discrimination. It's the rights of male bodied people to be in sex-segregated female spaces that we are questioning.

You want to have a look at the madness posted on Twitter by Transactivists. Then tell me if you think they support women or feminists in any way.

I think they are more of a Mens Rights movement now and they seem to loathe and despise women. Especially middle aged white feminists. It's very sad.

There is a compromise. It's on the statute books already. The law as it currently stands has being trans as a protected characteristic, while requiring people who wish to gain that legal status to apply for a GRC, thus hopefully keeping out most of the piss-takers and predatory men who would otherwise piggy-back on self identification to gain access to women's spaces and places where women are vulnerable. The current law also allows exemptions for those rare occasions where biology matters - so women can still ask for a female doctor/midwife/nurse for intimate exams, trans prisoners wishing to transfer to the female estate are considered on a case-by-case basis.

What's questionable is why a small minority of very vocal activists who do not come across well (to put it mildly - they regularly threaten women with doxxing, physical violence, rape, murder) are so keen on pushing through legislation to allow for self-identification. I'd happily share a secluded toilet with Miranda Yardley or her partner Helen - someone who goes online saying "TERFS should die in a fire", not so much.

Datun I politely disagree. Some of the threads I have read have an enormous readership, the equivalent of a local newspaper in a medium sized town.

So it's not just people talking, it's a lot of other people also reading, too.

It's a question of opposing beliefs, not hatred of other.

Ultimately, I'm insulted by the opinion and beliefs of anyone who believes womanhood resides innately in ladybrains. That false belief reflects upon what they misunderstand half the human race to be. It's especially galling when that opinion is held by someone who is and has always been male from the moment of conception.
But I can live and let live. I'm unlikely to have warm feelings for someone who holds derogatory beliefs about me and all women, but hey, democracy.

The rare transwomen who have changed their own bodies for their own reasons, but still accept themselves as male, don't push to impact women and understand what makes women different, I can celebrate.

I can't celebrate a man who holds ideas about me as a woman that are offensive to me. I can't celebrate a man who demands submission from me regarding his identity and demands I pretend an untruth about both of us.

When people talk about acceptance, I think this: of course, acceptance as a member of society. Acceptance of reality. Acceptance of your human rights.
Not acceptance of and agreement with your opinions and beliefs though.

there is overwhelming evidence that the trans community are supporters of feminism

Feminism is the movement for liberation of women from the shackles of patriarchy. I see absolutely no evidence that transactivists are supporters of feminism. There are plenty of trans people - friends of mine among them - who do think women's protection as a sex class should be maintained but in terms of activism, they are few and far between. The aim of current transactivism is to force acceptance that transwomen are women, thus destroying women's protection as a sex class. I see no feminism in that.

Get the trans community to drop the idea of self-ID and then we can talk.

SharkSkinThing

I agree that mumsnet has a large readership. But it’s still normal women talking on the Internet. With a variety of different opinions.

Personal attacks are quickly deleted. Evident transphobia is quickly deleted.

The discourse is generally calm, rational and ideas get batted back and forth.

There is no hatred incitement or calls to violence. If anyone says anything unwarranted, they are generally piled on.

Asserting that the trans-ideology only works if you deny biology, should not be dangerous thought or speech.

The entire issue rests on the single premise of transwomen not being actual women. But being biological men.

If you can’t say that out loud, you cannot address any of the implications at all.

It’s very difficult pill to swallow calling mumsnet dangerous, when people in real life, in real time are being targeted, bullied, hit, threatened, and being intimidated at their places of work.

The women on mumsnet really, really do not do any of these things.

There is a compromise. It's on the statute books already. The law as it currently stands has being trans as a protected characteristic, while requiring people who wish to gain that legal status to apply for a GRC, thus hopefully keeping out most of the piss-takers and predatory men who would otherwise piggy-back on self identification to gain access to women's spaces and places where women are vulnerable. The current law also allows exemptions for those rare occasions where biology matters - so women can still ask for a female doctor/midwife/nurse for intimate exams, trans prisoners wishing to transfer to the female estate are considered on a case-by-case basis

This^ And it's TRAs undermining this compromise, not feminists.

I dont see feminists and trans people 'pitted against each other'. I see trans activists refusing to support a gender neutral third space and refusing to respect womens boundaries.

Jewish, Muslim, Romany and Sikh women cannot share some spaces with biological men. Some of them cannot use male doctors. They are protected by the Equality Act.

How will trans activists deal with this? Because so far all I've seen them say is 'thats transphobic' and 'get over yourself'.

Thank you so much for this post OP - I'm with you all the way. Peace and love to our fellow feminists and our trans friends.

And what about women in cultures other than yours? What are they suppose to do? Other than stay at home and suck it up?

And how to move forward?
Start by respecting and listening to one another rather than trading slurs.

perfectlywretched
I did not post any slurs, I posted facts.

Why wont trans activists talk about how to protect the rights of marginalised women? Why are we being called transphobic?

MN has become an increasingly dangerous space for trans people, and for trans allies to navigate.

That's not what dangerous means. Do we have to redefine all words according to trans ideology?

I've never been against trans women. Those with genuine body dysmorphia have my utmost respect and support for the struggles they encounter.

That said I have been very vocal against TRA's who believe they can appropriate my sex to enable their AG fetish.

I make no apologies for this.

Men should have the right to wear same clothes as women, have boob jobs, whatever they like.

I don't see there being any conflict so long as that was what they wanted. But it's not.

What they want is to appropriate women's jobs, women's spaces.

This is not feminists attacking transwomen. It's men taking things away from women.

Feminists have been listening a veeeeeery long time.
It's not that we've failed to listen, that we missed a vital explanation, or that we don't understand. It isn't an error of ignorance.

It's that we know every argument, every claim, every tactic, and we disagree. We already have heard it all. We aren't lacking education on gender theory. We oppose it.

I agree that slurs aren't helpful if your aim is reconciliation.

There will only be one outcome, eventually.
In the longterm, there will be a return to the acceptance that biological sex is hugely critical and must be recognised properly in a civilised society.
In the short term, there will be perhaps a contrived attempt to construct laws around the idea of gender being some internal invisible feeling or belief of sex. But this will inevitably fall apart like a law attempting to refute gravity.
No society can deny reality for too long. We need to rely upon one distinct, recognisable sex too much in practical terms to write their biological existence out of our laws.

The circle will turn. Reality is too compelling. Society can't sustain a pretence for very long when reality contradicts it so loudly, so persistently that it cannot be ignored.