Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

Previous thread here for context.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3113243-feeling-sad-weary-that-feminists-trans-women-are-constantly-pitted-against-one-another

Datun

Play the ball not the person. or do you not have an answer other than eliminate trans people because their existence is an ideology rather than reality.

Ideologies can cease to exist when people cease believing in them.
People do not.

Female people continue to exist regardless of ideologies about identity or braintype.
We continue to be fundamentally, biologically and importantly different to males. Regardless of any ideas in those males' heads.

The question isn't whether denying the ideology in a male person's head means denying they exist.

The question is how much you would need to hate actual women to demand that they are not to be acknowledged for what they patently are. Because a man needs them to pretend instead. And one man's desires trumps billions of women's needs.

Debbie6666

Women, feminists have been trying to dismantle gender stereotypes, right? They think it’s beyond awful that a woman cannot just be a butch woman, but she has to become a man.

It’s damaging.

And you’ve got the bloody nerve to use the very example of something feminists have been trying to stop happening, to prove a point against them?!

Of course it’s awful for the women confronted by someone who looks exceptionally male! And be unable to call them out for fear of being transphobic. Of course it’s awful for that transman!

You are totally agreeing with feminists! But attempting to leverage it.

It’s not the fucking job of feminists to be responsible for the very problems they are trying to prevent.

Stop it.

Under the old honour system, transwomen usually used female toilets discreetly. I doubt they were ever noticed and if they were I don't think many would have objected because it was understood that they were mostly harmless (that a Douglas Adams reference btw). I don't know what transmen did because they were very thin on the ground. I suspect that for the few that existed they used men's toilets.

My perspective on TIFs such as Mr Stetson is slightly different to others' here. I think they should use the men's toilets under any honour system that might exist and a third space under under any legislated system.

My bottom line is that women should be able to both perceive their intimate spaces are safe (to expect them to be safe) and for them to be safe. I would not perceive a toilet to be safe with Mr Stetson in it.

However, I'm not prepared to compromise women's ability to access public and intimate spaces (often the former is predicated on the latter) because of the very few individuals who look like Mr Stetson. Crude utilitarianism maybe, but that's my bottom line.

I agree. She should use the men’s. Unless she announces that she is a woman and it’s obvious.

Sex segregation is for the benefit of women. Not men.

If a woman wants to forego that, that’s her decision. I decry her reasons for it, as I think she’s confused. But she is adult and, we allow adults to make decisions.

The toilet thing is one thing but there are so many more issues involved. So many more spaces that women need to themselves. So many more areas where they need protection.

So there's one TIF who looks like a bloke. In the end she isn't a bloke no matter how convincing she is when dressed up. None of the TIM who dress up as women are actual women. No matter how much surgery they have to cosmetically alter themselves to look like women.

I really worry about all this reliance on surgery - it's not good for anyone. We all saw how poor Pete Burns ended up.

Stat decs are of course legally enforceable and very useful in many circumstances, but I am not querying their use in other circumstances, but in this specific circumstance. What would it say and who would be expected to enforce it?

Nobody is suggesting that we eliminate trans people

Saying that we don't subscribe to a particular ideology in no way eliminates the people who do. Luckily.

Debbie666 earlier on the other thread you said that the Self-ID and the proposed GRA works in other countries, could you please tell me which countries, what does working look like and how has this been measured?

My bottom line is that women should be able to both perceive their intimate spaces are safe (to expect them to be safe) and for them to be safe. I would not perceive a toilet to be safe with Mr Stetson in it.

I agree with Spartacus here. I would also hazard a guess that Mr Stetson does too.

And to further highlight the difference in scenario here: does anyone honestly think that a man would feel threatened by the presence of Mr Stetson in the Gents?

*I would also hazard a guess that Mr Stetson does too.

And to further highlight the difference in scenario here: does anyone honestly think that a man would feel threatened by the presence of Mr Stetson in the Gents*

I was wondering about that. I read the picture to say "see, if you ladies protest too much then you will have to put up with the likes of me in your bathrooms because I won't be able to use the gents and how safe will you feel then because how will you be able to tell the difference between me and any other man who decides to come in and say 'oh but I'm really a woman' - ner, ner, ner sucked in we've got you because it's catch 22 and double jeopardy".

But the other scenario is that Mr Stetson probably uses the men's toilets because he wants to and at the same time hopes like hell that he's not found out and pulverised/raped by the same violent men who might try to gain access to the women's toilets or who are confused homophobic thugs maybe.

Aaaaaand - we’re back to lavatories again.

We always end up there when other things become too difficult. A bit metaphorical, that........

To be fair, I have also thought about other scenarios involving Mr Stetson and have pretty much decided that I would not want him in a women's refuge or shelter, women's ward or anywhere else for the same reasons I've outlined above.

BronwenFrideswide

From the Scottish consultation they have identified

3.21. Countries that have adopted the self-declaration model include
Norway, Denmark, Malta, Colombia, Argentina, and the Republic of Ireland.

Debbie you didn't answer the second part of Bronwen's question:

'what does working look like and how has this been measured?'

Interesting the countries that have gone down the self identifying route. Two that practically define social liberalism, and three with utterly woeful records on women’s rights.

The 'how do you measure it?' question is one that's bugging me, to be honest.

Good solid statistical studies of harm and benefits are going to be hard to do in a society that struggles to define gender and sex, permanently muddles the two, and thinks it's transphobic to mention the difference.

Thermostatpolice

I'm not going to go into detail of every countries system, the Scottish proposals do have further details though if you wanted to go and look.

Their investigations also found no evidence of misuse.

^The Scottish Government’s research into countries using selfdeclaration
systems of legal gender recognition has not identified evidence
of false or frivolous statements being made by applicants.^

You are free to submit your views on that and query how they came to that conclusion.

Lancelottie

Given the numbers of applicants are so small it would not be hard to see if things are going wrong, even ignoring categorising them into labels.

Their investigations also found no evidence of misuse.

Two out of three rapes are unreported.

The #metoo campaign ran to literally millions of unreported sexual harassment incidents.

Including those where men had gone out of their way to ensure that the woman did not report.

I seriously do not understand how anyone who lives on the same planet as me, cannot comprehend how sexual harassment and intimidating women is endemic. And why it suddenly disappears in the places where women are at their most vulnerable. At exactly the same time as admitting men who do not respect women’s boundaries.

It’s either the most shameful ignorance, or wilful misogyny.

Datum. Your position seem to be that trans people are confused and misguided, is that correct?

If so given the weight of medical evidence to the contrary which suggests that being trans is just a part of the human condition much like homosexuality. That holding your view is not entirely inline with one of acceptance and tolerance of people with different experiences..

^Their investigations also found no evidence of misuse.

Two out of three rapes are unreported.

The #metoo campaign ran to literally millions of unreported sexual harassment incidents.

Including those where men had gone out of their way to ensure that the woman did not report.

I seriously do not understand how anyone who lives on the same planet as me, cannot comprehend how sexual harassment and intimidating women is endemic. And why it suddenly disappears in the places where women are at their most vulnerable. At exactly the same time as admitting men who do not respect women’s boundaries.

It’s either the most shameful ignorance, or wilful misogyny.^

Given RofI issued 109 GRC's in 2016 under self declaration. With the intense scrutiny of transgender issues here, and the USA and likely locally, we would not have heard about any problems.

Confused and misguided?

Absolutely not.

Men with gender dysphoria have a difficult condition to manage. They are largely not the men who are insisting on access.

The men who are insisting are not in the slightest bit confused.

They want validation. Others want to practice their fetish.

There is no confusion. Their arguments are illogical, though. Because they’re not up front.

Claiming that male violence is only an issue when it’s against transwomen in male toilets, but not men in female toilets, for instance.

That holding your view is not entirely inline with one of acceptance and tolerance of people with different experiences..

That’s terf talk right there. I absolutely agree trans women and women have different experiences. What I don’t agree with is that the TW experience is that of a woman.