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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Break it down for me?

972 replies

TortiousTortoise · 20/01/2018 22:16

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (been trying to talk to my husband about it and am struggling to articulate it).

I feel so awkward writing about this as I definitely don't want to come across as sounding horrible about transpeople, I just want to understand.

Also there are a lot of acronyms being thrown about. Can anyone help me out?

OP posts:
Deadlylampshade · 22/01/2018 12:36

Well the thing with the degenderetes or whatever they’re called is that most of them aren’t homosexual, they are straight men who like to wear a bit of eyeliner therefore they can’t be men anymore in their minds. I find that their ‘queers never die’ slogan so unbelievably offensive to take to a pride march that was set up because actual gay people were actually dying.

Ekphrasis · 22/01/2018 12:47

Yes. It's the issue with children thar us the reason I had to learn more.

In a professional and personal capacity.

The bbc two part documentary called "no more boys and girls" had me punching the air regarding both trans issues and gender stereotyping, but particularly how masculinity is forced upon boys, as it's so bad for them. We know femininity is forced on girls and that there's much being done to break that down. Sadly it isn't as well known or understood regarding boys in schools and society and the programme even linked the way boys were taught to deal with feelings to male violence in later life.

There IS an issue in both schools and the way stuff for boys and girls is made/ marketed. And (imo) it takes the mumsnet matrix to help you see how this directly feeds into the patriarchy, misogyny and anti feminist ideology, as well as confusing young boys and affecting their mental health (links to lower emotional literacy in boys can translate to depression and suicide - see Australia's manup.org.au campaign, but it can also be channelled into violence.)

And of course leading young boys to think they must be a girl. I remember a little boy in my class when I was five crying and wishing he was a girl as he loved to play in the home corner.

Robert Webb's book "how to be a boy" looks at some of this too.

And I've recently found out about a new magazine called "sonshine". Which I love.

I was worried this was "whataboutery," but it's all part of the wider picture, especially for young children.

Whataboutery is something to be aware of: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/stop-asking-me-what-about-men/amp/

Ekphrasis · 22/01/2018 12:48

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Ekphrasis · 22/01/2018 12:49

So wtf is queer? Seriously, is it just what Duran Duran, Adam Ant and Bowie were doing all those years ago?!

Deadlylampshade · 22/01/2018 12:54

Kind of, basically anyone can be queer, they just have to ‘identify’ as queer. So for example if you only want to sleep with people you are in relationships then you are ‘demisexual’ which is queer.
I think it’s a rejection of the idea that we have to fit into two boxes and instead they now have millions of different boxes for which to put you in.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 22/01/2018 12:54

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MyYoniFromHull · 22/01/2018 12:58

As far as I can see, queer is often used by people in boring heterosexual relationships who claim to be more edgy and interesting than other people. They may have blue hair and/ or an undercut, and may have occasional same sex crushes.

As compared to those nasty bigot lesbians with a vagina fetish because they don't want to date people with dicks, even if the dick owner feelz like a woman

Ekphrasis · 22/01/2018 13:02

Thanks.

I think.

There's a glitch in the matrix.

Confused

still don't get it

ATeardropExplodes · 22/01/2018 13:05

Queer isn't queer as we used to think it - no sir. That homo sex is for such squares.

This is why we all need to revert back to basics.

Men are men, women are women, and should all be allowed to wear what we want. Job done.

Deadlylampshade · 22/01/2018 13:07

everydayfeminism.com/2016/03/difference-between-gay-queer/

Here you go this should clear it up.

Oh wait it doesn’t? Sorry

blueskypie · 22/01/2018 13:12

Love this thread. I hate how the mainstream narrative is so anti common sense with this stuff. I've most definitely reached peak trans and then some.

Ekphrasis · 22/01/2018 13:13

Brain fried.

This is the international sign for queer: Confused

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 22/01/2018 13:14

I'm not on Facebook but could see that page with the Degenerettes on it. I didn't have any sound on so didn't hear what they were saying but it looked as it they were acting out being Majorettes but with twirling baseball bats instead of batons. Nice!

NigelMolesworth · 22/01/2018 13:20

This thread has been incredibly helpful.

I am increasingly horrified by the thought of where all this is heading, and the erosion of women's rights, but struggle to articulate why. Thank you so much all of you for the links and comments. I have read the first few but may need to read them again until I've thoroughly understood and can repeat it back if needed!

Catmint · 22/01/2018 13:32

Thank you for this thread.

Theowlinthepussyhat · 22/01/2018 13:51

I think it’s a rejection of the idea that we have to fit into two boxes and instead they now have millions of different boxes for which to put you in.

But what if I don't want to be put in a box? I'm just me, albeit my 'me' has female biology? What does that make (sorry) me?

I realised a while back that I have been gender critical for most of my life, mostly thanks to my mother. I wanted a train set for Christmas one year, but I couldn't have one as train sets 'are for boys'. I had the same response when I asked for some Meccano, a year or so later. This must have been when I was in infant school, and I remember feeling really confused because I enjoyed playing with other people's, and just wanted some of my own.

In my teenage years, I remember her telling me that she wanted me to be the perfect corporate wife when I grew up. The teenage me thought 'Sod that, why can't I own the bloody company', but didn't dare say that to my mum!

This isn't the world I was promised while I was growing up, I thought that the gender pay gap would be a thing of the past, and that everyone would have equality, and just be treated as an individual, judged on their own merits. I also thought that we'd have reached the point that clothing would just be to keep you warm, and that no-one would be judged for whatever they wore.

I am gradually trying to educate my nieces, one of whom is a newly qualified infant teacher, I can only hope I'm getting the message through to them.

okMaybeIAmATERF · 22/01/2018 14:13

I'm afraid I'm not brave enough to put much out under my real name, eg on Facebook: I've already encountered horrible arguments including with friends and family members that I don't want to have in such a public forum.

What we can all do though is fight gender stereotyping like never before. That's the root of all this: children and their parents thinking if they like pink they must be a girl, etc. Get rid of that, and the supply of apparently trans children will dry up. I know we've been trying for decades - but try harder. It's much safer than fighting trans ideology directly, and I think likely to be more effective.

Unforunateseriesofevents · 22/01/2018 14:20

This is a really interesting thread, thank you for starting it @TortiousTortoise - it has really helped me understand and articulate some of the stuff that has been rattling round my brain for the last few months. I've even rejoined twitter to follow some of the gender critical accounts from the links on here.

I have a question for @Datun if I might? You've said that 85% of TIM keep their male genitalia. Whilst I don't doubt this I wondered if you might have a source for it?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 22/01/2018 14:40

This isn't the world I was promised while I was growing up, I thought that the gender pay gap would be a thing of the past, and that everyone would have equality, and just be treated as an individual, judged on their own merits.

I did as well. With hindsight, I was very, very lucky to go an extremely academic girls' school with strong science and maths teaching. There was no stigma at all around choosing to do Maths and Science A levels (and almost all of us did stay to do A levels, which in the late 1970s must have been very unusual). About half the year group did mostly Science/Maths subjects (not me). There were around 80 of us in the year and if I remember correctly around 10 went on to medical school, one to veterinary college, one to dental school, at least three to engineering degrees, one to astrophysics, probably one or two more to Physics, several to Chemistry or Biology or similar. Almost all our teachers were women and all were graduates, so we had role models for adult women who'd gone into STEM.

With this in mind, I was startled to say the least a few years ago when the Alumni magazine arrived. The school has since merged with a boys' school and is co-ed. A well-meaning sixth former (female) had written a piece which I assume was aimed at younger girls. It said girls sometimes thought they couldn't do Maths and Science because they are boys' subjects but this isn't true, girls can do them too! etc etc.

Weve gone backwards. 40 years ago that didn't need to be said to my year group, we just knew it.

Datun · 22/01/2018 14:42

Unforunateseriesofevents

It's actually far harder to find links now. About anything to do with trans.

When I first googled the stuff a few years ago, the information was readily available. Not so much anymore.

This is a link, the date of which I can't find (although I have a feeling it's 2009 as I believe I've read it before). It says since the year 2000, 853 genital surgeries on men have been carried out.

I think the estimate for how many people are trans is about 700,000?
Although, I have seen it much higher than that, too.

You need to google transwomen genital surgery statistics, or words similar.

It's worth noting that the words gender reassignment surgery do not necessarily mean genital. It can facial feminisation, for instance. (Adams apple shaving and jaw minimising.)

www.bournemouth.gov.uk/councildemocratic/Statistics/Documents/JSNA/GenderReassignment.pdf

Transactivists have definitely got at certain information online.

When I first googled autogynephilia, The top five sites were about men talking about it. I actually copied and pasted some of the stuff they said and sent it to my MP. As it was fairly self-explanatory in its shock value.

If you google now, you get sites saying it's a made up illness, and anyway natal women have it (!).

I'll keep looking to see if I can get any more statistics, although I think it's fairly understood it's about 80 percent. That doesn't tend to get disputed.

Datun · 22/01/2018 14:50

Weve gone backwards. 40 years ago that didn't need to be said to my year group, we just knew it.

That's so bloody sad and infuriating at the same time.

I was listening briefly to something on the radio yesterday where they were talking about women sport, and the assumption that come on you know, girls can like sport too!

The whole segment was about debunking the myth that only boys like sport. But done in such a, my goodness we've just realised this should be discussed, kind of way.

I too, thought that by now this would just be a complete gimme.

Instead of which are going backwards. Men can say they are women, and women's sport will suffer further.

Unforunateseriesofevents · 22/01/2018 15:11

Thanks @Datun - I will spend some time searching now. It’s terrofying how far the activists on this reach.

Datun · 22/01/2018 15:19

Unforunateseriesofevents

No worries, let me know if you get anything concrete.

Your difficulty will be that half the time transwomen want you to know there are lots of them and they should be considered, and then the other half that they're a minority - and should be considered.

They will also want most people to assume they have had genital surgery, whilst at the same time, complaining about waiting lists and asserting they should not have to have surgery to be considered trans (which I get).

So try and go for actual, stolid statistics. Rather than articles and opinion pieces.

Deadlylampshade · 22/01/2018 15:35

But what if I don't want to be put in a box? I'm just me, albeit my 'me' has female biology? What does that make (sorry) me?

That leaves you out here with us the sad square prude hateful terfs who don’t understand gender. Apparently.

Theowlinthepussyhat · 22/01/2018 16:00

I'm glad to be with you, then, @Deadlylampshade Wink. As I saw recently on Twitter, Terf really stands for 'telling everyone real facts'.

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