Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

The whole point of an honour system would be to trust people's motives who claimed to be women.

It also means women have the right to say 'no way' if there is doubt!

To be clear:

1. Leave the GRA well alone
2. Self ID would work on a honour system controlled by women
3. Never prescribe hormone blockers to kinds unless there are exceptional circumstances

meep meep meep meep meep

• Vehicle reversing in vicinity -

meep meep meep meep meep

women have the right to say 'no way' if there is doubt

Could you describe some scenarios where you see this working? In changing rooms and women's jails alike please?

My position is different. Let’s not put women at risk by provoking, antagonising and pushing for a reaction. You will achieve a lot more being respectful and open to compromise. I’ve said all this before but there’s a determination on here to make everything an angry battle.
Considering that submit, or die, has been the theme song of abusive men for time out of mind your suggestion that obedience is compromise rings as hollow as the rest of your assertions.

This in particular: Feminism to me is equality for all women, including trans women.
is deeply offensive to Feminists since it is the position of the backlash against Feminism and gave rise to the 5th ruse of misogyny: Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
perfecty you and Debbie6666 between you have ticked almost all ten of the rules of misogyny. Here is the list if you wish to verify. I think you covered #6 on a different thread.
1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.
5th rule of misogyny: WATM! Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.
7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the "real reasons" for everything women do and say.
10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

Also do you include transwomen in your definition of women in the quote above?

Rule, not ruse. I typo that all the effing time.

Alittlebitofbutter I have many times on this thread.

To keep things simple.

Harmless trans woman = please come in

Bad man in dress pretending to be a woman = get out now

But how do you tell the difference? Please give me a more lengthy explanation. How does it work in prisons? Can women say no? How does it work in a shared single sex room in a college? Can a woman say she feels uncomfortable? How is the trans status measured?

Alittlebitofbutter

GRA certificate = woman

All other cases judge individually, based on the behaviour of the individual and potential risk to other women.

It is impossible to tell who is harmless or not until they stop being harmless.

Plus a lot of non harmless behaviour is not actually illegal.

The ability to get rid of men was useful, not because all TW were got rid of, but because if there was someone being iffy then whoever was told would kick them out no questions asked because they were men and they weren't supposed to be there in the first place, no further explanation required. If women need to justify it, then all the behaviour that is dodgy but not illegal needs to be tolerated, and if women do complain we are in the whole one word against another / women are often hysterical or imagine or misinterpret things / probably they're just a bigot territory.

#metoo shows just how difficult it is for women to complain about dodgy male sexual behaviour. Men are dodgy as fuck all the time everywhere and loads of them fetishise places where women are and men aren't - changing rooms, toilets etc. Loads of them also target vulnerable women who are less likely to report - schoolgirls are a popular target. I just see this making things more difficult for women and girls & increasing the types of incidents that we already don't bother reporting and take as background to our lives.

The honor system as defined by trans activists is that anyone who says they are a woman must be honored as a woman when using the women's rest room or changing room in spite of whether they are waving their penis around.
That means we can expect an increase of incidents of male dominance displays where men congregate in the ladies loo while the women stand outside hoping they will leave soon. These men have no honor.

perfectly

Datun is the OP, we've debated this for almost two weeks and finally reached an agreement

Yeah, no. The honour system relies on rules. The rules are men keep out no matter how they identify.

If a transwomen puts their head round the door and says the gents is looking dodgy do you mind if I use your loo, and all the women agree then he can come in. On the understanding that it’s a courtesy, and he does not milk it.

If one woman looks uncomfortable, it’s the transwomen’s responsibility to back off.

In the exact same way, that women use the gents. Oh, hello, the line for the ladies is a mile long do you mind if I take a quick wazz?

Your version of the honour system relies on certification. That’s not any kind of place for honour, that’s a basis for a piece of paper.

Several people have asked if you are trans. You have chosen to not reply. ( I think, I might have missed it,)

Someone who has skin in the game is going to be preaching from a different hymn sheet.

I've never heard it called honour system before and it's obvious we're talking at cross purposes.

What I'm talking about is the way women are socialised not to make a fuss and to be nice, meaning that generally we don't "make a fuss" about things unless we really feel like we have to.

As such this is simply a consequence of female gender socialisation which mainly benefits men (we are polite to them even when we want to tell them to fuck off, we ignore people who are doing all sorts of weird shit on the basis that we "shouldn't make a fuss").

It's not some kind of formal system that women are all told about or anything. And how things are in different countries is likely different as socialisation and safety levels are different.

"That means we can expect an increase of incidents of male dominance displays where men congregate in the ladies loo while the women stand outside hoping they will leave soon"

This!

I anticipate lots of men gleefully using the ladies when they need a shit.

GRA certificate = woman

OK I think I am understanding you now.

But this means you ARE actually against self-ID. As self ID means anyone can just fill out a form and have a GRC.

Obviously, if anyone could get a GRC with no diagnosis of sex dysphoria, then GRCs would be meaningless.

If this is actually your position, might I suggest writing to your MP. As if these proposed changes to the GRA do actually happen, GRCs are effectively useless, and we are back to square one. I prefer the GRC to actually mean something, as they do actually 'protect' transsexual people. I just do not want any person to be able to get one. Which is exactly what self-ID would allow. Detrimental to transsexual people and to women.

Harmless trans woman = please come in

Bad man in dress pretending to be a woman = get out now

No need to keep things simple Perfectly

Women are not stupid.

perfectly is quite good as what they do. They come out with a position opposed to just about everyone's on the thread and argue for it in a woeful manner tying themselves in knots, contradicting themselves as they go, and once they've pretty much discredited their own position, they "restate" it in an acceptable form and seek "agreement" with some posters. Once this is apparently obtained, their position changes yet again and it's back to the bollocks. But the variant is to argue that "but some of the posters agree with me!". This is to give the impression that the thread is now split into those who agree with perfectly and TERF-y types.

For ages the gender critical threads have been attracting ploppers and their "I'm disgusted at the transphobic hatred" posts. The response was frustrated posters saying "engage with us, explain why you think we're wrong" but of course the ploppers with no arguments would just bugger off. Finally, the longed for response has been provided. As what a piss poor spectacle of misrepresentations, goal posts on rollers skates, sleights-of-hand, and gaslighting this has been.

These discussions would really benefit from taking place with the public watching on.

Also, have we considered that lesbian women are allowed in women-only spaces? Yet most lesbians don't sexually assault the other women within the vicinity...

Lesbian women are still women. I don't understand what significance sexuality is meant to have on sex segregated areas?

Datun An honour system relies on both parties honouring the agreement. Trans women can use the ladies as long as they behave and women agree not to chuck them out purely because they are trans. If a trans woman behaves badly she is not honouring the agreement and therefore gets chucked out.

BatShite I never said I was in support of the self ID law - I don't have strong feelings either way as I don't think it will make any difference. Many on this thread think it will be disastrous so I took on board their comments and said 'write to your MPs requesting the current legislation remains' as that will then solve all the problems.

Elendon for an honour system to work it really is that simple.

Oh and by the way I am not trans!

This assertion that the opponent wants terrible things to happen to their friends and family because it will lend support to their political position is one I am seeing a lot lately. It used to be considered a deplorable accusation to make, even in a political debate. I think it reveals a great deal about the character of the accuser.

@BatShite:

The primary concern here appears to be that allowing transwomen in women's areas increases the likelihood of sexual violence etc. Lesbians are sexually attracted to other women, and may thus have a motive to sexually assault other women in the area, yet they are still allowed into women's facilities.

The truth is that we don't know anyone's true motives - male or female.