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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

999 replies

Datun · 19/12/2017 10:17

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

OP posts:
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Original poster
Datun · 23/12/2017 12:49

perfectly

Datun of course! So if God forbid Jazz Jennings was beaten up or sexually assaulted she would not automatically be kicked out of a women's refuge or rape crisis centre for not being biologically male...

I should imagine trans-people, particularly post surgery, who are subjected to sexual assault would have a wealth of different psychological reactions to that of women. The powerplay which would be different, the physical injuries, which would be different, the different treatment of those injuries.

I should imagine, too, that they would even prefer someone who was trans themselves as a counsellor. Or at least someone who fully understood the specific psychological issues. Someone being sexually assaulted who has gender dysphoria would be dealing with something very explicit.

However, it’s probably not likely, as there aren’t enough transpeople to warrant it.

OP posts:
SpartonDregs · 23/12/2017 12:50

I support self ID as it empowers trans women to access female spaces under the present honour system.

You are hilarious. But carry on. Do you even know what you are typing any more?

TunaSushi · 23/12/2017 12:51

Transing kids is my primary concern anyway. I find it so irresponsible how many adults are advocating for untested drugs longterm on young bodies. And all for aesthetic reasons! Its bonkers. Utterly bonkers.

I echo this.

Has anyone thought about a targeted writing to MPs on this part of the issue?

Original poster
Datun · 23/12/2017 12:51

BatShite I support self ID as it empowers trans women to access female spaces under the present honour system.

I don’t understand either. An honours system excludes any leverage of power on behalf of the person asking for access.

OP posts:
TunaSushi · 23/12/2017 12:53

There are many resources on this thread including the batshit Head teachers guidelines, to send with the Trans Health manifesto & their platforms giving evidence, training and so forth.

VerticalBlinds · 23/12/2017 12:53

Self ID likely means the end of women's sport, and also the end of ideas about getting more women (becunted ones) into positions of power / influence from where we can help to drive society in a direction where the views of 50% of the population are not under-represented. Quotas will be irrelevant. Boards can be 50% female while 100% of them were male until age 50 and they have all got dicks.

What has happened is that as women have started to "get stuff" - female sport has become better funded, better regarded and there is more sponsorship, there are places carved out for women in many areas where there is decision making / power / money attached, accessing this stuff becomes more appealing to men. When women had fuck all, very few men indeed were trying to pass / live that way. The old style trans-sexuals, and that was it. What we have now is a great way for arsey men to take stuff from women if they want. And this is going to be legislated for. Who set up all the rape shelters? Who fought for women only shortlists? etc etc

VerticalBlinds · 23/12/2017 12:56

A LOT of men feel that women have the "upper hand" in society now and deserve to be brought down a peg or 2 - a LOT of men like to upset women. We see it when out and about all the time. This gives them extra tools to do it and removes recourse for us until the point that they do something illegal - and even then let's face it most women don't report anything. And with minor things we are told to stop being so silly.

perfectly · 23/12/2017 12:58

Sorry BatShite I'm talking about supporting self ID on a case by case basis so if pre op trans women wishes to use a ladies loo there is no drama. Hence the honour system.

I support the GRC process. Once a trans women has been through it then she is legally a woman and therefore has equal rights with all women.

BatShite · 23/12/2017 13:01

mirandayardley.com/en/how-transgender-became-the-new-black-presentation-in-parliament-on-31-october-2017/

mirandayardley.com/en/transgender-transtrender-and-the-duplicitous-claim-to-validity/

I know most on here know of Miranda Yardley. But I feel the need to post these two articles on here at the moment. First is specifically about the proposed self ID bill. Transsexual people, overall (obviously no group will agree 100%) seem mainly against it. Which of course they are. As they can see the potential for abuse. And can see how giving out GRCs to everyone will negatively affect people who already have a GRC. The GRC will become meaningless, if it really does become as easy as filling in a form, no medical diagnosis, nothing.

SpartonDregs · 23/12/2017 13:02

therefore has equal rights with all women

Apart from accessing female spaces, what rights did they not have as men?

guardianfree · 23/12/2017 13:02

Yes TunaSushi - it's the harm being done to children that needs to be shouted far and wide. People genuinely don't know and if they hear activists talking about 'the importance of taking puberty blockers before the onset of puberty' probably think "that's interesting".
We need to be repeatedly detailing the side effects of the drugs, the long term impact of sterilisation / surgery on young people's bodies until everyone is in no doubt about the damage caused.
AND call out anyone who claims that discussing this is transphobic!

PencilsInSpace · 23/12/2017 13:03

perfect - either you have no idea what 'self ID' means in the context of the current debate or you are playing some weird obfuscatory mind game with the hope of sowing enough confusion that we all give up.

BatShite · 23/12/2017 13:04

Sorry BatShite I'm talking about supporting self ID on a case by case basis so if pre op trans women wishes to use a ladies loo there is no drama.

Again, I can make no sense of this? Self-ID means people can 'change sex' by filling out a form. No diagnosis of sex dysphoria, no 'living as a woman' (whatever the hell that means...this is the part I could get behind getting rid of actually as all I can make of this is 'following feminine stereotypes)

Nothing to do with honour systems that are currently in place for transsexual people.

Removing any medical basis for a GRC is just insane.

TunaSushi · 23/12/2017 13:07

My MP didn't care about women, lesbians, trans or gay issues around this, people with dementia, learning disabilities etc. What did anger and persuade my MP was the safeguards and drugging of children, (despite their aid who sat in the meeting being pro drugging children), being a parent was also a factor, repeatedly my MP said "What if these children change their minds in adulthood"! I actually think my MP was thinking about future litigation and political point scoring, as I repeatedly advised it was their party pushing this. I also stated that now they have been alerted to potential safeguarding issues, if there is a future Serious Case review locally on the issue, questions may be asked as to why they did nothing.

I am holding the Tories to account on behalf of an ungrateful Left, who are strutting around policing the wrong people.Confused

IrkThePurist · 23/12/2017 13:13

TunaSushi thats really useful, I'm going to try that approach. Maybe the threat of future litigation will make my MP wake up.

LangCleg · 23/12/2017 13:17

Lang the honour system covers all that. Now we've had the breakthrough the specifics can be thrashed out on another thread.

No, it doesn't.

BatShite I support self ID as it empowers trans women to access female spaces under the present honour system.

This is why it doesn't.

The honour system has nothing to do with the GRA. It's about social etiquette not legal entitlements.

The honour system means that women generally accept that transsexuals going about their business may use women's toilets and/or changing rooms with no fuss. Not male-bodied cross dressers.

The invoking of single sex exceptions has nothing to do with this at all. Invoking single sex exceptions means maintaining women's rights to organise services and particular spaces, plus affirmative action programmes, as methods of protecting and promoting women in a sexist society. Fuck all to do with toilet etiquette.

perfectly · 23/12/2017 13:19

BatShite I still don't think the self ID online form will make any difference to the number of trans people, but I carefully read all the objections on the thread and advised that if you are really worried about all the stuff you say you are then write to MPs about keeping the GRC in place and that will solve the problems.

SpartonDregs · 23/12/2017 13:22

that will solve the problems

What are the real problems that you inferred needed to be dealt with earlier?

Also, what rights are these transwomen going to get that they havent already got, apart from accessing women's spaces?

BatShite · 23/12/2017 13:23

I still don't think the self ID online form will make any difference to the number of trans people

No it won't make any difference to the number of trans people? Why would it? It will make the GRC meaningless though, if anyone can apply for one. Where currently most people take the GRC seriously. If anyone can get one, people will start disregarding them fullstop. Which will negatively affect trans people. Who can get a GRC under the present system if they so chose to. Literally the only people self-ID will help are the ridiculous 'female penis' types.

if you are really worried about all the stuff you say you are then write to MPs about keeping the GRC in place and that will solve the problems.

I have done this already. Months ago.

BatShite · 23/12/2017 13:24

The honour system has nothing to do with the GRA. It's about social etiquette not legal entitlements.

Indeed.

TunaSushi · 23/12/2017 13:25

Irk, I suggest you actually meet in person too. My MP would have followed the lead from the aid, had I written. Only in meeting my MP could I gage which way to direct the debate focus. I didn't even mention prisons, refuges, changing rooms or toilets, there was never going to be any empathy there. The aid was clearly trying to hold back laughter much of the time initially. The MP was wincing at times, I didn't explain that it was mostly girls being sent to Tavistock as I got the impression my MP was more interested in stopping male bodied children from being infertile and left with a micropenis.

SophoclesTheFox · 23/12/2017 13:26

if you are really worried about all the stuff you say you are

I think I might just keep highlighting the ways that perfectly shows her hand.

This is a peach of a sly put-down right here.

LangCleg · 23/12/2017 13:27

BatShite I still don't think the self ID online form will make any difference to the number of trans people, but I carefully read all the objections on the thread and advised that if you are really worried about all the stuff you say you are then write to MPs about keeping the GRC in place and that will solve the problems.

But it won't solve the problems of many institutions behaving as though self-ID reforms to the GRA have already taken place and therefore failing to invoke single sex exceptions (see: many women's orgs, Guides, schools, etc). It won't solve the problems of transactivists hounding and harassing and lobbying against any orgs and institutions holding out.

That's the bloody point!

You haven't read anything "very carefully" at all.

perfectly · 23/12/2017 13:28

BatShite we're in agreement, I think you have been entirely reasonable.

perfectly · 23/12/2017 13:34

So many people on here say 'trans women can never be women' but if you back the current GRC certificate then you accept trans women with the certificate are legally women.

Feminism to me is equality for all women, including trans women.