Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

Xenophile

Lang said;

Datun and Batshite were talking about an "honour system" by which women accept use of women's toilets and changing rooms by actual transsexuals as a piece of social etiquette. And you were redefining "honour system" to mean support for legal changes to self-ID - as you explained in several posts.

And I pointed out 'actual' transsexuals are legally women and therefore have every right to use female facilities.

There are two way to distinguish between 'genuine' transsexuals and trans women. Either inspect their genitals or use an honour system! I vote for the honour system.

Right, so no one ever said anything like that other than you. Thanks for the clarification.

Maybe you could answer some of the many other questions you've chosen to ignore in favour of throwing strawman arguments about now.

One other thing, your post and your belief system behind it makes you a TERF. Not truscum (because you can only be truscum if you're trans), a TERF.

Oops, another, you seem to think there's a distinction between trans women and transsexuals and that by you inspecting their genitals, you will be able to tell the difference. This suggests that you're unaware that you don't need to have had any form of surgery in order to gain a GRC. Now how are you going to tell, now that your desire to look in their knickers isn't going to help?

Like men on dating sites sending unsolicited dick pics

Yup, weird huh how the same traits all come out in the wash. Every time i mention on twitter how aggressive and male their behaviour is I get blocked. I do wonder why...

This "honour system" is not some kind of blood oath formal thing like it seems to be getting referred to as.

it just means that in general where people who look a bit blokey are in the ladies, the vast majority of women ignore it unless the are behaving a bit oddly in which case in my part of England women will probably continue to ignore it unless they start making a lot of people really quite uncomfortable indeed. Obviously TW who passed went without notice and this benefitted GNC women as well. The assumption was that if someone was using female facilities (of whatever type) then they were female or if they obviously weren't but weren't doing any harm then OK although TBH I've never seen this in the ladies- I have seen men in the ladies though and it really pisses everyone off.

This new thing has fucked it up for everyone because it has introduced suspicion. GNC women, TW who don't quite pass etc are all met with people trying to work out "what they are" rather than just assuming it was all OK unless something happened as in the past.

I'm not surprised the old-school trans-sexuals are fucked off, these new people have really fucked things up for them. And on top of fucking it up for them, they have the gall to refer to them as scum. Insult to injury really.

Fundamentally most women do not want men around when certain stuff is going on, and this is being ignored and the door opened for any perv who fancies.

It's like there's a parallel thread unfolding in Perfectly's world where we're all under the impression that trans people don't exist, and we're happy that women get punched. On that thread we also seem to be signing up to some kind of bilateral trade agreement in lieu of underpant checks, and she's totally bossing that thread and running rings round us

That is not the thread I see before me.

This "honour system" is not some kind of blood oath formal thing like it seems to be getting referred to as.

Quite. And also, please note that earlier in the thread, in response to my saying that I would like to see single sex exemptions strengthened and extended, perfectly responded that this "would all be covered under the honour system".

In perfectly's parallel thread, the honour system is self-ID for everything, no single sex exemptions, no nothing. Back here in the real world, the honour system we're all talking about is the one with women not challenging obvious TIMs in the loos if they're clearly just going about their business quietly and unobtrusively.

There are two way to distinguish between 'genuine' transsexuals and trans women. Either inspect their genitals or use an honour system! I vote for the honour system.

Oh for goodness sakes. Many (probably most) transsexuals haven't had 'bottom' surgery and don't intend to.

So basically your plan is we'll all be jolly good chaps and hope, and women and girls are just collateral damage if anyone abuses that. I asked you over a thousand posts ago if you also leave your car and home unlocked on the same jolly good chap principle.

Beyond bored with this silliness. Have the guts to own your own values .

There are two way to distinguish between 'genuine' transsexuals and trans women. Either inspect their genitals or use an honour system! I vote for the honour system.

How horribly patriarchal of you to even suggest this. I think you will find inspection of knickers is no longer a thing.

When I was a school girl, I used to go through an inspection of knickers when it came to PE (Physical Education), to ensure we were not lying about having a period.

It's up to men to ensure that women have their safe spaces. Men know how violent other men are. They also know the damage they can do.

"Anyone who looks a bit mannish who goes into the ladies, the women and girls in there will want you to expose yourself so they can have a look"

Yes I can see that working out really well

perfectly seems to forget the vast numbers of men who are red hot keen to show their willies to women and girls.

It's all very silly.

I have no idea why you are still trying to argue with me? I'm not asking you all to agree, just saying the OP and I reached an agreement which as a pro trans feminist I am satisfied with so there's nothing left for me to discuss.

For anyone who didn't get it, OP agreed to the below at 11.09:

GRC process stays as it is. Honour system for female spaces. Blockers illegal for trans kids. Let kids be kids, don't tell them their clothing sense makes them the opposite sex.

there's nothing left for me to discuss.

And yet here you still are.

You want us all to shut up and go away now?

You want us all to shut up and go away now

Very much like 'man has spoken, nothing left to say, go away and do some housework ladies'. Weird huh?

Errrm you are still addressing posts to me, I never said don't carry on discussing amongst yourselves

Errrm you are still addressing posts to me, I never said don't carry on discussing amongst yourselves

Give very with your ridiculous smiley faces at the end of your posts. It is pathetic.

Give over. So dull.

Did we ever find out what the "real problems were?

The real problem was getting an answer to any actual question.

the OP and I reached an agreement

You. Did. Not. Reach. An. Agreement. With. Datun.

You are using "honour system" as a synonym for self-ID in every area, including the law. Datun - and everybody else here - is using "honour system" as a piece of social etiquette in very limited circumstances.

No agreement. You know this. I know this. Everyone reading this thread knows this.

We've descended into farce.... I think I might make an early start on the sloe gin!

I have coffee vodka - just about to pour but not because some goady fucker is being annoying. Just because I can.

The compromise agreed with Datun and BatShite at 11.16 is the position I am willing to back, as a pro trans feminist, that protects both women and trans women as per the original OP.

OK this is back to confusing me yet again. Apparently this compromise was acceptable But you then went on to say you support self-ID. So clearly the compromise was not acceptable.

Also I don't know why some seem to think MN is some kind of hive mind. Yes me and datun were engaging on this compromise (that it did not look like you were actually interested in, as you said you were but then immediately reverted back to 'I support self-ID'?) but just as you were talking about it with us 2. that does not mean all other posters on here are happy with that?! Thats a weird way to look at stuff.

Have not finished the thread yet so this may have already been gone over. But this compromise you say happened, did not seem to actually happen as if it did, you would know the compromise was to leave the GRC process well alone as its fine the way it is, and that self-ID is a disaster for both fem,ale people and transsexual people alike.

Goady fucker.

it just means that in general where people who look a bit blokey are in the ladies, the vast majority of women ignore it unless the are behaving a bit oddly in which case in my part of England women will probably continue to ignore it unless they start making a lot of people really quite uncomfortable indeed. Obviously TW who passed went without notice and this benefitted GNC women as well. The assumption was that if someone was using female facilities (of whatever type) then they were female or if they obviously weren't but weren't doing any harm then OK although TBH I've never seen this in the ladies- I have seen men in the ladies though and it really pisses everyone off.

This was my understanding of honour system. Should have known that there would be a different one in place. Afterall, changing usual definitions is pretty normal in this debate

BatShite that is my exact understanding too. You rely on honesty so if someone says they are a woman and they do not seem dodgy and they are not threatening they come in.

If anyone is dodgy and threatening they are out. It protects both the women and trans women.