Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

Datum

If a woman wants to forego that, that’s her decision. I decry her reasons for it, as I think she’s confused. But she is adult and, we allow adults to make decisions.

Sorry you must be speaking a different language to me then as that is exactly what you said.

My mistake.

We haven’t had any studies from Ireland. Anecdotally Irish women are saying they don’t mix in the toilets.

Culturally it doesn’t seem to be acceptable.

And they certainly don’t seem to have this new wave of gender fluid Johnny come lately’s like Travis.

Given the numbers of applicants are so small it would not be hard to see if things are going wrong, even ignoring categorising them into labels.

I think you've entirely missed the point here, but maybe I'm misunderstanding you. What did you mean by that? Are you saying that to monitor this, we should only look at the outcomes for those who have a GRC?

Debbie, you bought up the other countries with self ID so assume that you're personally satisfied it works well elsewhere? How did you come to that conclusion?

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll dig around the Scottish Government proposals. But you saw the risk assessment upthread. I don't have huge faith in their commitment to women's safety or research skills.

BTW Malta and Norway allow children to self ID. I don't think that their policies should be emulated:

www.independent.com.mt/articles/2016-09-28/world-news/Following-in-Malta-s-footsteps-Norway-extends-gender-identity-laws-to-children-6736164367

I agree, I believe transmen are confused. They transition for entirely different reasons. They are not predatory, neither are they sexually motivated.

Neither do they threaten men. Or beat them at sport.

Have you even bothered to read the detransitioning stories of women?

Stephanie Davies Arai who runs a website for the parents of trans-children has said she is yet to see a female who hasn’t transitioned either because they are a lesbian, have suffered sexual trauma or are autistic.

Much more in line with the ‘truscum’ so reviled by transactivists.

Lancelottie

In analysis of if self ID GRC are misused it would seem appropriate to only look at people who have used self ID GRC's. To do anything else is analysing a different situation.

It’s estimated that there are 650,000 trans people in this country. Only approx 4000 of whom have GRCs.

It’s not about legally changing your status to the opposite sex. It’s about the equalities act protecting anyone who even thinks they want to do it.

And how that has, culturally, resulted in people like Travis demanding entry to the changing rooms of young teenagers, whilst his best friend thinks little girls are kinky and deviant.

Yes, I see. Are those outcomes being separately monitored in the countries mentioned, though, or are offences by or towards people with a GRC simply being categorised as the 'new legal sex'?

Look Debbie6666 I don’t blame you, or anyone else, for trying to find a way to manage this situation to the satisfaction of both women and transwomen.

Your problem is, at the very heart of it, there is a conflict of rights.

Rights for a minuscule number of men with gender dysphoria being hijacked by opportunists.

I too would like to find a way to help these men, even though, they do not make these demands.

But it should not be at the expense of 51 percent of the population. And lead to things like a 19-year-old boy calling women bigots because they don’t want him representing them.

Debbie6666

It is not helpful for UK feminists to look at highly patriarchal societies such as Ireland and Malta because women's rights there are already proscribed compared to the UK. Why would you not expect them to impose patriarchal laws such as self-ID? They have no history of listening to women.

As for places such as Canada and their legislative changes - this moves us on to the more thorny issue of childhood transition. Canada and the US tend to use the informed consent model - which UK-based Mermaids/Gires/ATH also advocate for while the UK radfem position is to argue to maintain the current policy of watchful waiting. We won't know for sure how critical this is for some time - either there will be multiple class actions for medical malpractice by detransitioners or there won't.

Claiming that male violence is only an issue when it’s against transwomen in male toilets, but not men in female toilets, for instance.

I'm not making that claim, stop trying to imply I am.

Deal with the violence, let law abiding trans women (and men) go about their business without un-necessary intrusive judgement on who they are.

(and men)

Sorry should have said (and trans men) don't want to appear MRA

If I had to pick 5 things that concern me about this whole issue, I reckon lavatories would scrape in at number 5. It’s a problem that could easily be solved by throwing money at it. Unlike any of the others!

Many of the problems wouldn't exist in the first place if trans people would accept a gender neutral third space.

Sex segregation exists for the safety and privacy of women and girls. (And because some cultures demand it.) That wont change, no matter what claims are made.

Irk how would you see the third space working for prisons, care homes, hostels and other institutions? I've heard it mentioned a lot but not the details. Would it be government funded?

let law abiding trans women (and men) go about their business

Debbie you need to listen - NO-ONE IS WORRIED OUT THE LAW ABIDING TRANS FOLK. It's the non-law abiding men who will put frocks on and pretend to be trans in order to violate women we are worried about, and the proposed law that makes that an awful lot easier.

Law abiding trans-women have been peeing in the cubicle next to me for years - not a problem. Law abiding trans-women have understood when I have said I do not want an internal examination conducted by them. Not a problem. Law abiding trans-women have asked for a single room because they recognize that sharing a room with a stranger with the opposite-sex body could be very uncomfortable for me. not a problem.

It's the other buggers that are the problem - and they would appear to significantly out-number the law abiding genuine trans folk.

I'm not making that claim, stop trying to imply I am.

Unless you include yourself as a illogical trans-mactivist, then it wasn’t directed at you.

Deal with the violence, let law abiding trans women (and men) go about their business without un-necessary intrusive judgement on who they are.

What violence? The two out of 3 rapes that don’t get reported? The millions and millions of sexual harassment incidents that don’t get reported?

Why? Why give any potential predator unfettered access to his victims and then say, well report if it goes wrong?

How can you, or anyone tell women not to judge men? Tell the bloody men.

Men constitute virtually all the predators in the country.

Hence sex segregation.

This is going around in circles.

If you don’t understand why sex segregation is important, and why women don’t want to allow men, who come from the predatory cohort, in, then there’s no point talking about it.

If I said to you that out of a 100 tame lions, one was a wild predator, would you be happy walking in the compound? Given you can’t tell one from the other? Do you think it would be ‘judging’ if you kept looking at each lion in turn wondering which one it was?

Datun

I think its fair to say that Stephanie Davies Arai given her prominent anti trans stance is not necessarily in contact with the complete cross section of transgender men and any statement that she has not met a trans man that "hasn’t transitioned either because they are a lesbian, have suffered sexual trauma or are autistic" is probably suffering a fair degree of selection bias.

Conversely in trans inclusive spaces you regularly see trans men reporting that they were coerced to identifying as lesbians rather than trans as that was more socially acceptable, but that identity just did not fit. Transition answered all their problem.

Transition answered all their problem

I have never heard an 'old-school' transwoman say that (caveat - I don't know any 'old-school' transmen). What I have heard is that it was probably the best solution, albeit messy, to an impossible problem, or that they are neutral about it. Some have some regrets. I don't know of a single one who thinks that it solved their problems. The newer generation seems to think it's going to be all sunshine and roses though.

In analysis of if self ID GRC are misused it would seem appropriate to only look at people who have used self ID GRC's. To do anything else is analysing a different situation.

Let's unpack this.

A bloke is self-declaring as a woman to gain access in to women's changing rooms. While in there he's taking videos of women undressing. Numerous women make complaints to the police. Under your proposal, unless this bloke is caught and convicted, these crimes would not be recorded as a mis-use of gender ID self certification. Women's witness statements would not be counted.

If I said to you that out of a 100 tame lions, one was a wild predator, would you be happy walking in the compound? Given you can’t tell one from the other? Do you think it would be ‘judging’ if you kept looking at each lion in turn wondering which one it was?

So in your straw man 1 in every 100 men is a sex offender.

Personally i have no problem going on holiday to locations where lions roam freely, not one of them tame.

YetAnotherSpartacus

Yes sorry, point taken, but better societal acceptance would help them.

So in your straw man 1 in every 100 men is a sex offender

No - 1 in 100 of every male in a female space (toilet, changing room, refuge) is a sex offender. Actually I'd say it was far more than 1 in 100...

Yes sorry, point taken, but better societal acceptance would help them

Er, no. Not having the mental health issue in the first place (and they acknowledge it as this) is what would have helped them.

Debbie

You are wilfully disregarding the point. Say it was 200 lions or 300 lions or a million? It’s enough lions to statistically support the rape of one in five women.

Enough lions for me to have literally never met a single woman who has not suffered some form of sexual harassment.

I think its fair to say that Stephanie Davies Arai given her prominent anti trans stance

You’re ust revealing your motives. She doesn’t work unstintingly because she’s anti trans, she’s pro children.

She receives hundreds of emails a week from worried parents. Who tell her what’s going on. No bias, just parents’ comments.

Do you seriously think this woman would be devoting her time and attention to the distress of hundreds of children because of misplaced bias?

She is certainly against the reinforcement of gender stereotypes.

She sees boys coming to school having transitioned to girls being given special treatment and presenting in a stereotypically girly way. The girls then look at themselves, and wonder why they are not girls. Or not the right sort of girls. Or not the girls who get celebrated for being girls.

Do you not agree that the reinforcement of damaging gender stereotypes is having a detrimental effect on young girls?