Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

999 replies

Datun · 19/12/2017 10:17

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Debbie6666 · 19/12/2017 13:51

A bloke is self-declaring as a woman to gain access in to women's changing rooms. While in there he's taking videos of women undressing. Numerous women make complaints to the police. Under your proposal, unless this bloke is caught and convicted, these crimes would not be recorded as a mis-use of gender ID self certification. Women's witness statements would not be counted.

Possibly not, but then it wouldn't go unnoticed if there was an uptick in un-identified trans predators, neither would it go un-noticed if those applying for the GRC were not conforming to the roles they are declaring as (gender stereotypes in action) . Its not a process you do on your own in your basement. Officials are required to take the oath, they would notice suspicious activity (and no it wouldn't be a hate crime) the people processing the requests would notice Eamon declaring herself as a woman with no other ID changes.

Irish feminists are not isolated from the internet, the USA GOP, US and UK anti trans campaigners and quite a few others are scouring the internet for evidence of abuse of self ID. none found.

Daton may now post a bunch of articles she has posted before, but none of them will be evidence of abuse of self ID.

Original poster
Datun · 19/12/2017 13:54

Daton may now post a bunch of articles she has posted before, but none of them will be evidence of abuse of self ID.

As I have said repeatedly, the actual law around self ID is an administrative issue.

Self ID is here. With the exception of prisons.

You agree that predatory men try and access women? What you are doing is arguing over which laws should be either supporting it or preventing it?

OP posts:
titchy · 19/12/2017 13:58

Debbie are you trying to say that you do not believe any man would pretend to be trans in order to violate women? Do you really believe that?

Debbie6666 · 19/12/2017 14:02

Daton

Stuffing more straw in your scarecrow does not make it more real.

Are you denying that SDA work precludes her for being exposed to selection bias. Why would successful and coping trans people seek her out? I see anecdotal evidence quite the opposite. Parents with their own bias are also not reliable WRT trans issues. Many parents of older transitions first reaction is they had no idea, other parents look for any answer that is not "the trans" much like they did for homosexuals in the past.

As for you last point on gender stereotypes, trans people (through misunderstanding and misgendering) can do a great deal to break this down even if its not what they intended. (ok for a bloke to wear a frock etc)

Debbie6666 · 19/12/2017 14:04

titchy

No I am not God, i do not have that kind of access to humankind. I am saying that trans people are not in the overwhelming majority the threat.

IrkThePurist · 19/12/2017 14:08

I dont care how brave you are, Debbie. You dont get to force women to do what you want. Its sounding more like coercive control with every post.

You are clearly very ignorant of how other women live. Go spend a month in a psychiatric ward or prison. Go live with another culture that isnt so privileged as you.

Ereshkigal · 19/12/2017 14:09

However, I'm not prepared to compromise women's ability to access public and intimate spaces (often the former is predicated on the latter) because of the very few individuals who look like Mr Stetson. Crude utilitarianism maybe, but that's my bottom line.

Mine too. This is a vanishingly tiny minority and it's being very typically used as a "gotcha!" by a trans ally. Not really very mature or particularly helpful.

titchy · 19/12/2017 14:10

I am saying that trans people are not in the overwhelming majority the threat

Confused - we all agree trans people aren't the threat - we've said that time and time again.

Men faking trans in order to be violent are the threat. Do you at least agree with that?

Original poster
Datun · 19/12/2017 14:10

As for you last point on gender stereotypes, trans people (through misunderstanding and misgendering) can do a great deal to break this down even if its not what they intended. (ok for a bloke to wear a frock etc)

I think this is where you simply don’t understand what’s going on. Men wanting to wear dresses breaks down stereotypes. Correct.

Men wanting to wear dresses and saying therefore that makes them a woman, is reinforcing stereotypes.

It’s saying that dresses are for women and if you want one you have to be a woman. Therefore only women wear dresses.

Non-binary and gender fluidity works. But only if you remain the sex you are born as, whilst being fluid. If you insist one you’re a boy because you’re wearing trousers and the next you’re a girl because it’s a dress, again it just reinforces gender stereotypes.

Re SDA (I don’t understand your use of the strawman argument in this case). ‘Bias’ implies an unfair attitude. Her attitude is fair and rational based on the children she sees.

If you consider that 2000 children are year are going to gender clinics, when only statistically only 37 will have gender dysphoria, surely even you must realise we have some very, very confused children.

Girls who think they must be boys, because they don’t look like the boys who present as girls.

I don’t understand why this isn’t obvious to you.

OP posts:
perfectly · 19/12/2017 14:12

I think it's fair to say some men do horrendous things which could potentially include pretending to be a woman in order to assault her in a female space. The level of vitriol on here towards transgender people is not proportionate to the threat posed by this minuscule minority of men. The fact it hasn't even happened in the UK says it all.

Elendon · 19/12/2017 14:15

Homosexuals? A frock?

Are you for real Debbee?

Ereshkigal · 19/12/2017 14:17

I dont care how brave you are, Debbie. You dont get to force women to do what you want. Its sounding more like coercive control with every post.

YY.

Original poster
Datun · 19/12/2017 14:18

It does happen. It is happening.

m.facebook.com/groups/1722756661380462

Nearly half of the men who identify as trans in prison are sex offenders.

Far more than the male population in general.

There are literally hundreds of accounts of men identifying as trans, whether genuine or not, who have committed violent and sexual crime.

But you still think it’s a good idea to allow this specific cohort to access female spaces.

You are the one who sounds biased.

Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.
OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 19/12/2017 14:20

It is not just about safety. Males accessing female spaces against the will of women is a direct invasion of privacy and a direct violation of boundaries. And for me is about power as much as it is about validation in most cases.

Elendon · 19/12/2017 14:20

And yet Perfectly you ignore the horrendous impact on young girls who were groomed and sexually assaulted by men who now want to be women, in order to mitigate sentencing.

Did you not read Anlaf's post?

How do we detect "fraudulent" declarations that a man is a woman?

To a criminal standard? Beyond reasonable doubt?

The links in my post above show it is already the case that men are tried for sexual offences as women, and no judge (that I can see) has suggested that these men were not heartfelt in their intent to be seen as women.

These men say they are trans and that their being trans should be a MITIGATING factor in sentencing.

Sometimes that argument works, and they get a reduced sentence.

So how can you change the culture to prosecuting - successfully prosecuting - men like these, rather than viewing their situation as something that excuses their offending?

Debbie6666 · 19/12/2017 14:21

Men faking trans in order to be violent are the threat. Do you at least agree with that?

I don't agree that self ID will make an iota of difference. There is just not the evidence to support that it does, or is it even logical that it would.

Self ID is still not a licence to assault, making one is useless to gain access to single sex facilities. You would need regular ID for that. A sex predator going to the extreme of making a self ID and living with inconsistent ID is so contrived then no manner what we put in place in society they will still find a way. Don't throw all the innocent trans people under the bus to stop the contrived over complicated way for a predator to operate when it wont stop them or actually make it any easier for them.

Ereshkigal · 19/12/2017 14:21

Debbie knows full well that women would not be in a position to accuse individuals of "fraudulently" obtaining a GRC.

irretating · 19/12/2017 14:24

Irish feminists are not isolated from the internet, the USA GOP, US and UK anti trans campaigners and quite a few others are scouring the internet for evidence of abuse of self ID. none found.

I want to respond to this in two ways.

  1. If the testimony of women is not valid ...

and

  1. There is evidence of abuse of women by men when men are allowed in women's only spaces.
Elendon · 19/12/2017 14:24

Why are you supporting child sex offenders Debbie

Debbie6666 · 19/12/2017 14:24

Elendon

If your going to selectively quote me to make completely different posts then probably no i am not for real.

Time to call it quits and go ice xmas my cake. Outstanding arguments are not conceded.

Perfectly, over to you. good luck.

Ereshkigal · 19/12/2017 14:25

Don't throw all the innocent trans people under the bus

Males have no right to access spaces segregated by sex for the privacy of women. It's not just about safety. We need women's rights to be respected. We need to lobby for mandatory third spaces to be provided. Or an understanding that "reasonable adjustments" should be made where possible as with disability rights.

BertrandRussell · 19/12/2017 14:25

It's not even only about actual violence. It's about women feeling insecure and uncomfortable. If giving someone the wrong pronouns is literal violence, surely making somebody feel worried and unsafe most be too? Kx

LangCleg · 19/12/2017 14:27

Perfectly, over to you. good luck.

Openly talking about tag teams doesn't really make you come across as a genuine debater, Debbie!

Ereshkigal · 19/12/2017 14:27

Yes. We need to move the focus away from just the safety issue IMO. Why do women's feelings count for fuck all to excellent feminists like perfectly and Debbie?

Swipe left for the next trending thread