Follow on thread to - Feeling sad and weary that feminists and trans-women are constantly pitted against one another.

[Datun]

Thread came to an end. But I wanted to reply to Debbie.

Debbie6666

Your transman in the cowboy hat?

It really it really is the height of enough to actually leverage the damage that the trans ideology does to try and get women to capitulate to it.

We are telling you how detrimental this is to women, including transmen, and you’re actually using it as a ner ner moment?

It’s beyond parody. And very deceitful.

perfectly I have no idea what your last response to me actually meant

But nice try at silencing woman and I'm pretty sure the dodgy men post on the threads not lurk.

Happy to stop talking about loos.

Can we talk about sport, the gathering of crime statistics and things like intimate care in care homes?

Thanks for the link wtaf.

And the scholarships and other measures that have been put in place to address the under representation of women in various aspects of public life?

And when we’ve got bored with that, we can talk about the extraordinarily stereotypical view of what makes a girl or a boy that seems to be front and centre for trans ideologists.

perfectly, please explain why you are so keen for men to come into areas where women and girls are getting undressed?

Been out at work, so this has possibly been overtaken by events, but I wanted to pick up on a comment of Debbie's at the end of the last thread: "Swearing on Oath is the foundation under our whole legal system, rather hope it works"

Don't be bloody daft. There was a fascinating programme on the radio the other night with a group of lawyers discussing swearing oaths verus affirming, and one of them made the very sensible comment that in courts up and down the land people regularly lie under oath - because it is in the nature of an adversarial justice system like ours that many cases come down to the accused saying he was somewhere else, the witness saying he was at the scene of the crime (or variations thereon), and one of them must be lying. The thing is that in our legal system there are additional facts which can be adduced to help the jury decide - fingerprints, the accused having tried to fence the stolen goods a week later, his alibi not standing up because the person who he was meant to be with says "no he wasn't there that night." Arguably "swearing on oath" is a hangover from the days when you could rely on most people believing in god and thus being fearful of punishment in the afterlife for taking god's name in vain - in the modern world, a simple reminder that perjury is an offence punishable by imprisonment would probably do the trick!

Getting back to the role of all this in trans issues, the point about trans self-ID is that the law is being constructed so that there are no other facts of the matter, by legal definition, which will be relevant in establishing someone is trans, other than that person's own assertion. They can't be said to have perjured themselves, legally speaking, because the proposed changes to the law would leave no objective standards against which such a judgement would make sense - not biology, not other people's reading of the situation, nothing. Simply saying the magic words "I am trans" would put your status beyond question.

And that, in a nutshell, has been my problem with this all along - I don't care how adults choose to describe themselves, I don't care what modifications they make to their own bodies - but when their choice of description has impacts on me, and the deck is stacked so that I can't question their self-description and its consequences in any way in a court of law, that is clearly wrong.

I actually think we should stop now as any dodgy men lurking on this thread might start getting ideas

That's an interesting suggestion. You mean, if it does turn out that sexually abusive men start identifying as women in order to enter women's spaces and commit offences against them ... that'll be the fault of feminists for raising this as a possibility and giving them the idea?

Along the same lines, perhaps reading Dworkin is a key precipitant for many rapists' first offence?

Therefore as a civilised society we should be obliged to respect that and treat trans women as women.

What? Despite numerous accounts of predatory men in female spaces. Despite numerous accounts of predatory men identifying as trans.

You now think it’s a good idea to say hey, let’s get rid of sex segregation?

Did it ever cross your mind that the reason why there aren’t numerous accounts of men, identifying as trans, attacking women in toilets, might possibly be because of sex segregation!!!

Your logic is so flawed it’s difficult to deal with.

Bernard

I agree with you, it is more than toilets. But as I said before, this is the time where most women will be effected. Where the ‘low level’ intimidation is open to more men, and will affect more women.

I agree, there are worse situations.

They are just not as common.

To me, it is the litmus test that will spread. Sort the toilets, you sort the rest.

Capitulate on toilets, the rest will be gimmee.

Betrand this is probably not what you mean but I am pleased to see a few LGBT care homes opening up because a lot of LGBT people are getting abused by fellow residents in regular care homes and face prejudice from carers. It's so sad they can't be treated with the same care and respect as other residents.

www.homecare.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1582279/Invisible-older-LGBT-community

That article has nothing to do with this topic.

PricklyBall

Exactly. Relying on a ‘diagnosis’ which is inidentifiable, defies description, is wholly unverifiable and is entirely subjective is a ridiculous basis to formulate a law.

perfectly

What on earth has that link got to do with women’s spaces?

In addition, LGB is directly erased by the T.

If I was an elderly lesbian, and I wanted my status acknowledged, it would be transphobic for the carers to accept that that my sexuality meant that I was only attracted to women.

I may have misremembered, but did you say you were a lesbian?

How can I acknowledge your status in the trans ideology? You should be perfectly happy sleeping with men. With a penis. As long as they have a lady brain.

Datun your logic that a dangerous rapist would stop in his tracks when he saw the ladies sign on the toilet and go 'ooh gosh that's the ladies loo I had better not go in there' is also difficult to deal with.

The hundreds upon hundreds of thoughtful well researched posts by datun and you come up with:

Datun your logic that a dangerous rapist would stop in his tracks when he saw the ladies sign on the toilet and go 'ooh gosh that's the ladies loo I had better not go in there' is also difficult to deal with.

Wow. Just wow.

Betrand sports or crime statistics which one worries you more?

Datun your logic that a dangerous rapist would stop in his tracks when he saw the ladies sign on the toilet and go 'ooh gosh that's the ladies loo I had better not go in there' is also difficult to deal with.

Why?

WTAF hope you don't mind me jumping in, but I find the idea of warped crime statistics terrifying. Sports will quickly become an obvious problem. The problem with crime stats will take years to become clear.

You are also utterly dismissing the way men make women feel uncomfortable. The way men can, and do, intimidate women.

Most of the men who are advocating for access to women’s spaces are doing it precisely to make a point (Travis).

They aren’t the slightest bit interested in the reasons why women feel intimidated. Because they want to intimidate.

Why else would they stridently demand access?

Most nice and decent men wouldn’t dream of making women feel uncomfortable.

My DH wouldn’t, in a million years, demand access to female spaces. Why? Because he doesn’t want to make women feel uneasy.

So who are you left with?

Men who either don’t care, or actively want to.

No. Just no.

Thermostatpolice that's exactly what I think, but I personally have very little interest in sport (I do more than understand the issues though) so I just wanted to hear others views.

Obviously the sports situation is immediately reversible and probably will be fairly soon, but the data? How on Earth are future generations ever going to unpick that?

The data worries me too. Reliable data and crime stats have been so important in describing the extent of the problem with male violence. If that data didn't exist or was unreliable we'd be a lot less concerned about predatory, opportunistic men. And we're talking about official data sources, not the Daily Mail.

Debbie's insistence that Stephanie Davies-Arai is anti-trans shows that they support the current model of affirming trans in gender non conforming children.

Effectively, this model promotes sterilising gender non-conforming children.

Trans allies like Debbie and Perfectly might keep claiming that mumsnet feminists don't understand trans people.

However what we do understand is being gender non conforming children. What happened to those 2000 kids (minus 37) in previous years?

We're here. It was us. And we're perfectly happy being women and not living in denial. We know we don't have to own heels or makeup and that doesn't make us a man.

So don't keep claiming we're anti trans or ignorant.

But ALittleBitOfButter wouldn't it make it easier for a certain type of man if the woman on this board had been transed as teenagers and therefore couldn't produce another generation of critical thinkers like them?

Thermostatpolice it's not just crime stats though is it? It's EVERYTHING. I could impact on education, health care, insurance, it's mine boogling.

Their investigations also found no evidence of misuse.
It would be necessary to avoid looking at any and all newspapers and police reports in order to find no evidence of misuse.