Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Datum. Can you not see a problem with trans men (AFAB)) becoming visible in women's spaces, and how that actually would make it easier for a man to just walk in and say they're trans masc

Betrand because I have no idea if it's a sensible idea or really dangerous! It makes me think 'would it not just be easier all round to let them use our loo'

perfectly I'm well aware you think it would be easier all round if woman just let men do what they wanted. I don't.

perfectly
IMO re. prisons, FTM are female and should be housed in the female estate for their own safety. MTF should be housed in the male estate but always segregated for safety if they wish and as soon as they ask for segregation. If this involves building extra wings and spending money so be it.

I agree that a third space everywhere is unlikely to be financially viable or workable.

I mean a lot of them are violent sex offenders Almost all violent sex offenders are male. NAMALT. Research seems to show that MTF retain male patterns of criminality after transition. It's about being male, not being trans. But it's a good point that segregation might make it easier to target and abuse trans people. Which no sane person would want.

Like PPs I find myself moving away from the third space suggestion. It's becoming clear that in practice there is a fundamental conflict between female consent and trans affirmation.

As suggested upthread, I'm beginning to agree that the safest and most reliable way of protecting women would be to have GNC as protected status and to segregate on sex alone. And to devote all this energy to tackling the root of the problem: male violence.

Menthol It seems plausible to me that if third spaces are created for care homes, hospitals, prisons, single sex schools and other institutions this could extend to many other places.

ROFL - yes, totally, I want female only Tescos. Why didn't we think of that earlier.

Debbie there was a very good post on here (think it was by quentin) about why transman are not causing a problem by being in their correct biological space on occasions when sex segregation is used.

Debbie and Perfectly what do you think of the suggestion upthread of making GNC the protected characteristic?

Thermostat You have hit the nail on the head, we are all fighting for women to be protected against male violence. It's important we don't lose sight of this common ground when discussing the trans issues.

Frankly, I think this is a problem for men to solve. yeah right like that's going to happen If transwomen are too scared to use men's spaces it it by definition not natal women who are creating the problem.

Debbie and Perfectly what do you think of the suggestion upthread of making GNC the protected characteristic?

It actually already is in effect in a round about way under "gender reassignment" due to the by association clause.

If the non binary proposals are adopted into the GRA then those protections might be strengthened.

I'm sure that will now be met with howls of complaint from all the GNC people here that they are not trans, that's true of course if that is who they are, but doesn't change the fact the trans provisions in the EQ act protect against discrimination due to non conformance to sex stereotypes. Of course it could be made better.

The application is accompanied by a sworn oath statutory declaration which if dishonest and fraudulently made carries criminal penalties.

Mightn't this make people scared to detransition for fear of criminal penalty?

It's also been said by lots of other people upthread. But agree that it can never be said enough, perfectly!

Debbie6666

Datum. Can you not see a problem with trans men (AFAB)) becoming visible in women's spaces, and how that actually would make it easier for a man to just walk in and say they're trans masc

Transmen are women. They need access to facilities to suit their biology. Sanitary provision, etc.

One can generally tell the sex of someone, despite how they present.

If we were culturally accustomed to not having to worry about men in women spaces, when a transman came in, the default thought would be is that a trans-man, not is that an actual man.

If not, we would be in a position to ask. It’s really, really not women’s fault that the trans ideology is allowing all these ridiculous possibilities to arise.

If women aren’t sure, they must be in a position to ask.

Debbie there was a very good post on here (think it was by quentin) about why transman are not causing a problem by being in their correct biological space on occasions when sex segregation is used.

Missed that, can you summarise it or give me a hint as to when in the 40 odd pages it can be found.

"Betrand because I have no idea if it's a sensible idea or really dangerous! It makes me think 'would it not just be easier all round to let them use our loo'

Yep. That's why the "badges on clothes""rounding up""who would miss them" references.

Mightn't this make people scared to detransition for fear of criminal penalty?

Detransitioners are already vilified and targeted. So you’re quite right. It would be an extra layer of fear.

Bending over backwards to accommodate men only serves to generate a whole heap of extra problems.

This is nothing to do with women.

Yes-the issue of transmen is interesting. I think one of the points we all skirt (no pun intended) around is that in almost all cases, it is pretty obvious whether a person is trans or not. And we are, I think, more accepting generally of non gender conforming women.

perfectly I'm well aware you think it would be easier all round if woman just let men do what they wanted. I don't.

Yes.

Datum

what do you make of this fella?

knowyourmeme.com/photos/1109010-transgender-bathroom-debate

How would you know if someone like him was regally using the ladies if the next person looking like that was actually a man up to no good.

Judge people on their behaviour not how they look or their genetics and stop telling women its a hate crime to do so.

If the non binary proposals are adopted into the GRA then those protections might be strengthened.

I think you've entirely misunderstood what people are suggesting.

The moobs sticking out of his cut out top might be an obvious clue!

the trans provisions in the EQ act protect against discrimination due to non conformance to sex stereotypes. Of course it could be made better.

Doesn't help all the girls forced to wear skirts as school uniform, or high heels at work. Not sure it's working as well as it should - so I'd go for strengthening GNC protection.

Debbie

17/12/2017 10:08 QuentinSummers

Is it not true that these women make invoke the same level of fear?
No it's not true. Because human beings are fundamentally animals and can innately recognise whether others are male or female. We use lots of cues, not just visible superficial appearance for this. In common with all sexually reproducing animals, our continued existence as a species depends on this.
The idea that a GNC woman is as threatening as a man is a straw man. It gets trotted out all the time in these debates but we all know that we can tell the difference between a GNC female and a man quite quickly.

I've met a couple of transmen. They were noticeably smaller than men, and didn't project an air of arrogance so I didn't find them intimidating, and had no problem realising that they were transmen.

Of course there might be some tall transmen, some transman body builders.