Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Hello curry thank you for reminding me that it isn't everyone.

I really needed that reminder. I would absolutely hate to ever stray over from fiercely fighting for girls and women, and against gender, into not absolutely supporting people's right to be exactly as they are. Glad you are here.

I've had a lot of questions fired at me but can anyone answer what bathroom a transitioning MTF transsexual is supposed to use? Assuming there is no unisex option.

I've had a lot of questions fired at me but can anyone answer what bathroom a transitioning MTF transsexual is supposed to use? Assuming there is no unisex option.

The terms of the GRA04 application would require them to use the ladies.

So perfectly you said transgender people truly believe they are women and should have the same rights as all women.

curry said I'm a transwoman and I don't believe I'm a woman, truly or otherwise. I have never met a transwoman in real life who belies they are tbh

Then you said
Apologies Order I was not intending to speak for all trans women, just those that do consider themselves born in the wrong body.

I'm a bit confused. Does that mean you think there should be another category of trans women, that are happy not to have the same rights as women?

And what rights are those anyway?

Debbie6666

You've forgotten some of the most important bits:

1. redefining the protected characteristic from "gender reassignment" to "gender identity", making obtaining a GRC moot.

2. removing exceptions for single sex services altogether

3. removing sex as a protected characteristic and replacing it with gender identity.

I'm not prepared to accept any of those things. Happy for gender reassignment to be a protected characteristic, however.

Debbie6666 I thought so, but it seems that isn't acceptable to most on here.

There is no law saying that though is there?

I'm pretty sure this would count as harrassment under the EA.

In any case, what on earth criteria are you going to use to determine which claims are fraudulent or dishonest?

transitioning MTF transsexual is supposed to use?

Everyone on this thread would be really supportive of your campaign for widespread provision of gender neutral toilets. Genuinely.

But you won't be starting that campaign will you? You'll ask that women are metaphorically pissed on instead.

Pity because until the trans lobbyists reared their heads we were quite happy to share our toilets with trans-women.

Quentin it goes back to the self ID issue - some transgender people identify as women which is why we're having this discussion.

that's why I propose you write to your MP and request a licence where certain events and venues can explicitly ban anyone male or born with male anatomy. This protects your spaces
Don't be ridiculous. We are women not dogs. We don't need a licence to be allowed our own spaces.

I thought so, but it seems that isn't acceptable to most on here.

Because Debbie has only dealt with the process of obtaining a GRC, not the rest of the self-ID proposals. You know, the ones that affect women and girls; the ones I listed above.

It appears to me that Perfectly is only interested in representing the interests of autogynephiles.

It appears to me that Perfectly is happy throwing those trans people with gender dysphoria under the bus, by continuing to use ideas and concepts aggressively pushed by AGP TRAs.

But she invokes the body dysphoric when talking about trans vulnerability.

It all seems so disingenuous.

can anyone answer what bathroom a transitioning MTF transsexual is supposed to use?

Can anyone answer why it's women's job to sort out where everyone goes for a piss?

If there are no suitable facilities it's up to the trans community to campaign for them. Many of us have said (repeatedly!) we'll cheerfully campaign alongside trans people for safe third spaces.

I have a DBS doesn't mean I'm allowed near a child to do intimate care without being supervised by another person person with a DBS.

I feel like I'm safe to do intimate care on a child without supervision, I'm pretty sure everybody who knows me thinks that to.

But we still don't take a chance on any child's safety no matter what certificates and self signed declarations I've got to my name.

The law works on the basis of what the extremes of society have done before and tries to prevent that situation happening again.

debbie my problem is not only with the gender recognition process. It's with the fact it reduces woman to "an essence".
How would you ever prove someone claiming they were a woman wasn't? We are in a situation where people who have raped girls are getting moved to prison because of their gender identity. So even if they offend in womens spaces, that means nothing, it won't prove they don't have a woman's gender identity.

I think the two year thing plus some form of physical/social transition demonstrates a settled intention to change gender. I think that's fair enough. After all we don't allow immediate no fault divorces.

The terms of the GRA04 application would require them to use the ladies

It's the second time you've said this. It's not true. The panel expects documents in the new ID covering at least 2 years. How would you even prove this to the panel? Take 2 years worth of selfies next to the tampon machine?

I think the transition MtF should use the men's as does Hope @streetvoiceuk on twitter.

I like Guardians idea of the poster campaign reminding other men in the toilets of their right to be there and what the (I hope very steep) penalties are for not allowing other people to piss in peace.

perfectly why not the other way round? That events and venues remain segregated on sex as they are now and the exception applies for a licence.

Also could you possibly answer my question about your statement on hijab wearing?

AGPs are using "truscum" and gender non conforming children to push their misogynistic woman-face agenda.

Womanhood is not a costume. I am not a woman because of my personality, but because of my biology. That is why it is sensible to have sex segregation rather than 'personality segregation', which is what gender segregation essentially is. I don't perform femininity at all. But i am still a woman.

For the record perfectly I've always identified curry as female.

Travis, Danielle, Alex Drummond, Paris Lees, Shon Faye - not so much, they ooze male entitlement.

LangCleg those 3 things would require changes to the EA, not the GRA. Miller has suggested the first two and had a private member's bill last year for the first, which ran out of time. Nobody has suggested, as far as I'm aware, replacing 'sex' with 'gender identity'. It's just that in practice, sex-based protections become meaningless if we are also treating gender identity as a protected characteristic, especially if the exceptions go.

I like Guardians idea of the poster campaign reminding other men in the toilets of their right to be there and what the (I hope very steep) penalties are for not allowing other people to piss in peace.

perfectlywhy not the other way round? That events and venues remain segregated on sex as they are now and theexceptionapplies for a licence.

This^

Sometimes you have to acknowledge other people's woo beliefs and give some leeway, even if you think they're utterly bonkers.

Not when they threaten your own hard-won rights to both access to public life, and hard-won resources, you don't.

Because that's what these laws will do, and are doing. For many women, not being able to rely on women-only facilities (refuges, loos, changing rooms, etc) actually being women-only will leave them unable to use them at all.

In an ideal world I would not maintain the status quo, I would remove any clause in any law that tells us we are not allowed to know and state when a man is a man.

There is no law saying that though is there?

It doesn't matter whether there is a "law saying that" as I'm sure you realise. Women would not be supported to challenge an apparently fraudulent claim. We are being silenced by intimidation, no platforming and political correctness/virtue signalling. You know this. Stop being so disingenuous.

Also I think we should stop referring to "puberty blockers" which are publicised as harmless, and instead use the name of the drug - Lupron.
If people googled that instead of puberty blockers they would get a more informed view of potential risks
E.g
www.nwhn.org/lupron-what-does-it-do-to-womens-health/