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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

999 replies

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 14/12/2017 22:27

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Datun · 14/12/2017 23:48

perfectlywretched

You post, but say little.

What do you want to happen? Not just words like acceptance and kindness, but actual, usable framework.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 15/12/2017 00:06

I dont see feminists and trans people 'pitted against each other'. I see trans activists refusing to support a gender neutral third space and refusing to respect womens boundaries

This.

Why not ask the TRAs when they are going to actually support womens spaces, rights and boundaries? When it comes to us campaigning for reproductive rights then will they stand with us instead of demanding that pregnant women be known as pregnant persons in case it triggers trans men or TIMs who want to give birth? Wil they support recent campaigns for rape crisis centres - ones that are womens spaces? And I've never seen then get involved in anything to do with campaigns for equal domestic labour or similar. All this time women born women have been berated for being mean or exclusionary. Why ask us if there are reasonable people in the trans community (we know there are - they post here) - ask the trans community what they are actually doing for women - not just transwomen .... I don't think you will find it is much.

blackdoggotmytongue · 15/12/2017 00:22

Please define dangerous.

The only 'danger' surrounding mn threads is that feminists could possibly be outed in rl and physically attacked.

but somehow, I don't think that's what you were implying? Were you suggesting that a parenting forum is somehow dangerous to transwomen? Because that would be farcical, given the outright physical threats that are made against feminists by transactivists.

When are transactivists going to be asked to be all-reasonable-like and stop making death threats to people? Because so far there has a been whole parade of 'why can't you all be nice'ers visiting FWR, and a stellar round of 'you go guuuuuuuuuurl' on twitter.

Gender socialisation at it's best. No-one cares if the men threaten murder, but the women have to be nice and politely ignore it. Or face disapprove tuts and bosom hoiking.

It's beyond a joke. Really.

I am beginning to despair of the educational system in this country when people are unable to exercise basic comprehension skills.

And once again. Slowly.

No-one hates transwomen. We all know perfectly amenable transwomen in our families and friends. Oddly, they aren't the ones insisting that self-identification should become law, as this endangers both women and transwomen.

What part of this are you failing to understand?

'DIAF cis-scum' v 'I'm concerned about women who have experienced violent sexual assault or those from other cultures in x, y and z situations'

Who is dangerous?

MrsTerryPratchett · 15/12/2017 00:47

I was friends with and sharing bathrooms with trans and GNC people before most of these activists were born FGS. We all rubbed along fine. Us mean feminists were allies back in the olden days. But self-ID and aggressive male intrusion has ruined relationships.

I'm still happy to share space with people. Just not give abusive men the right to say 'I'm a woman' and access shelters, refugees and prison.

GuardianLions · 15/12/2017 04:18

SmiledWithTheRisingSun

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc
This makes you a 'TERF' according to trans/male supremacist activists.

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

Yes there are. They are the ones who accept that you can't literally 'change sex'.
Because the percentage of the population who are self-aware transsexuals (not 'transgender') is tiny, of those, I imagine the majority are as de-politicised as the rest of society, so it falls on a small number to fight in support of women's rights. But they are massively outnumbered by an odd coalition of aggressive antifeminist misogynists who either identify as trans or as trans allies (many are actually neither) who threaten and bully them, to try to shut them up.

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

I think the phrase 'right to exist' is drawn from the propaganda of the woman-hating coalition of T/MRAs. It doesn't make sense. What do you mean by 'right to exist' OP? Do you a) mean 'quietly get on with their lives?b) right to hold certain beliefs and to gather according to them? Or do you mean c) 'legally change the definition of male/female'?

If you mean a or b but not c, then again, you would be described as a TERF.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.
Feminist transsexual/gender dysphoria sympathisers are simply called 'feminists'.

Feminist 'transgender activist' sympathisers are called 'Turkeys Voting For Christmas'.

And peace and love to all.Xmas Smile

ZigZagandDustin · 15/12/2017 04:54

Mumsnet is a disgusting hole of a place for trans people. I am also a feminist and supportive of trans people. I'm ashamed at a lot of what I read here regarding trans people. In real life people are mostly less of a mob regarding trans people thankfully.

GuardianLions · 15/12/2017 05:02

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

OP how about you put your exact same original post on various transgender forums and give us the links to your the threads here?
I would be fascinated to see the responses you get.

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 15/12/2017 06:51

Thanks for all the responses.

I am not as well informed as some if you clearly are in all the terms used here so please do forgive my ignorance.

Would it be accurate then to liken this Vocal/violentTran Activism to Radical Islam? It seems to me that, just as it is unfair to judge most peaceful
Muslims upon the actions of a few lunatics, the same could be said for the trans community?

Also, cal me a TERF if you will, but clearly a "third space" is the obvious answer as others have mentioned Hmm

OP posts:
MaidOfStars · 15/12/2017 07:04

A ‘third space’ is not acceptable to TRAs. They want female space.

Ekphrasis · 15/12/2017 07:05

Mn is not dangerous.

I fear posting on twitter as I know that really can be dangerous.

I feel safe asking questions and proposing statements on mn. I get opposing or questioning responses that help me to form ideas and lead to debates around a problem. Points of view, lateral thinking. I've changed my opinions several times, sometimes hugely sometimes subtlety as I learn more. I've gone off to research and find out more myself as a result of mn.

I think I understand even more about the needs of trans women now (as well as women/ feminists) but agree there should be a third space. There already is bar some better logistical stuff. The problem is self ID.

Ekphrasis · 15/12/2017 07:11

@ZigZagandDustin can you give examples? I'd hope you'd report them.

ladyballs · 15/12/2017 07:21

MN isn't dangerous. It's one of the few places women can state that women don't have penises and not be threatened.

SuburbanRhonda · 15/12/2017 07:26

OP how about you put your exact same original post on various transgender forums and give us the links to your the threads here?
I would be fascinated to see the responses you get.

That’s a great idea. After all, you can’t reach a compromise without the input of both parties.

Snowbelled · 15/12/2017 07:40

I'm with you. I agree entirely with the arguements about women only spaces. But I feel this has allowed transphobic views to unintentionally prosper. The analogy of Isis and Islam is a good one. Where a vocal minority (of a minority) tars the entire minority. It is also very distracting and turns people off from other issues of feminism which are equally if not more so relevant to most women.

MadgeMak · 15/12/2017 07:45

Snow, you do realize the fact that you agree with single sex spaces makes you a transphobe and terf right? It’s this rhetoric that’s distracting.

QueenLaBeefah · 15/12/2017 07:52

I used to be a trans ally but the venom coming from TRAs and cultural appropriation of women's lived experience has taught me that they will not compromise. In fact their demands are dangerous for women.

I wish them no harm but their cause isn't feminisms and, as a result, isn't something I would campaign for. I fail to see why I should give my time and effort to support their crusade.

SpartonDregs · 15/12/2017 08:08

Also, call me a TERF if you will, but clearly a "third space" is the obvious answer as others have mentioned

Not really. Sorry to put a spanner in the works but the issue with these spaces is because of the behaviour of MEN. Not women. So the people that want to wear dresses and make up that are not men, need to work on the attitudes of other men, so that they can pee in a stall/urinal in peace. Or get men's toilets which are usually already multi-use with urinals and stalls, renamed as gender neutral.

I am one of these people who was a 'tomboy' I spent my life with boys and men, I was an engineer, I own chainsaws, I have 2 sheds full of woodworking tools and materials that are mine, but hey, I am a woman. I once about 15 years ago had a row with my English tutor at uni because I said that the people should be allowed to wear what they want when they want, and [now a professor] told me that society norms prevail. I don't disagree but it is the norms that are the problem.

But the moment that a man committing a crime is either incarcerated in a woman's prison or the statistics of female crimes are including male crimes just because they said 'I'm a lady' - this crosses a line.

It crosses a line because it means that the statistics no longer record 'sex' but record 'gender' and decisions made by governments are now based on statistics that are patently a lie.

The moment a company can start encouraged males to apply for their top jobs because over half of them have ticked a box declaring they identify as women, when 100% of them are men, means that women will again be denied top jobs because of 'positive action' to make the board room more equal.

Girls wanting to join 'science clubs' sorry girls, but over half the club is already female 'ticked a box to declare they identify as a girl', and so we are only allowing boys in now.

Ask anyone from the translobby what a woman is and they run away, much like ZigZag above.

Also to quote 'In real life people are mostly less of a mob regarding trans people thankfully.' No, not thankfully, what you will find is that most people in real life are petrified of talking about it as they won't get heard, they will just get called a bigot, be publicly shamed and told to DIE IN A FIRE TERF BITCH.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/12/2017 08:10

Also, cal me a TERF if you will, but clearly a "third space" is the obvious answer as others have mentioned hmm

No one is calling you a terf

They are saying that you would be considered a terf by others

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/12/2017 08:11

Ooh cross post

That post was not there when i started typing and drank some more coffee

Still its been said before another time won't hurt

Nuffaluff · 15/12/2017 08:13

Would it be accurate then to liken this Vocal/violentTran Activism to Radical Islam?
No that would not be accurate at all.
People associate Radical Islam very closely with terroism. To compare the two would be seen as alarmist and make us look ridiculous.
If any one of us were to go along with that idea it would be all over Twitter.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 15/12/2017 08:14

smiled

Sorry this may come along as a little rude and you definitely are not Smile

But your OP comes over as 'why so mean jellybean' please be nicer....but you dont seem to have read much about the subject on here and will not therefore be aware of why some people are concerned

PencilsInSpace · 15/12/2017 08:18

The analogy of Isis and Islam is a good one.

For the analogy to work you need to imagine that Islamist extremists have the ear of the government and have persuaded them that sharia law is a jolly good idea for the whole country.

perfectlywretched · 15/12/2017 08:39

Datun to begin with I would suggest listening to transgender voices and showing respect for pronouns. They are telling us that referring to a trans woman as ‘he’ is violent. Most on here will scoff and put their fingers in their ears and tell me that men are the violent ones.

People keep saying ‘define a woman’ - but my point is to deny someone born biologically male the right to identity as a woman is to deny the very existence of transgender people. Denying their existence and experience is not going to make the problem go away, it is going to fuel anger and tensions and spur the trans activism movement.

Openness, compromise and a willingness to listen will initiate the same respect and consideration from the ‘other side’.

IrkthePurist I do not believe we should adopt the position of other cultures - for example some cultures dictate a women should wear a hijab in public - women of that culture are free to wear whatever they please but I do not believe all women should have to wear a hijab.

Datun · 15/12/2017 08:43

Also, cal me a TERF if you will, but clearly a "third space" is the obvious answer as others have mentioned hmm

This third space issue is a nonstarter. There’s not a feminist alive who wouldn’t vote for it. But transactivists go crazy if you suggest it.

I agree entirely with the arguements about women only spaces. But I feel this has allowed transphobic views to unintentionally prosper.

You’ve got that the wrong way round.

Feminists have never been against trans people. Firstly asserting that a man is a man should not be considered transphobic, given it’s true and is the basis of the problem.

Secondly, if you feel it has been some antagonism. Yes there has.

I don’t think all of you wondering why this is happening have actually experienced, or read any of the assertions and narratives that have led us to this.

For instance, the man recently on Twitter who had a film of himself naked from the waist down masturbating with a dildo in his anus. Feminists reported it as pornography. He claimed that was transphobic because he is a woman and women are allowed nudity on Twitter he just forgot a ‘sensitive material’ warning.

Or the well-known transwoman who writes quite frequently about their genitalia and the surgery, and how they masturbate in women’s changing rooms. And claims women get turned on when they buy new clothes. He has a ‘wank circle’.

Or the other famous transwoman who writes for mainstream media saying there is nothing more hot than fucking someone who is crying. Representing women when he talks this way.

Or the other one telling women to enjoy their erasure. And the other one telling women to suck their dick. Or the other one who is constantly on the television who claims that unshaven legs are dirty.

Or the other one who says women’s biology is meaningless, whilst in a public post officially representing women.

These are not people found in the dark corners of the Internet, or on Reddit. These are paid up members of society who have a public platform to speak (apart from the first one). They have influence and key roles. They are listened to.

If you forget mainstream media and look elsewhere you will find, literally thousands of posts. Transwomen who go into women’s bathrooms and ejaculate on toilet paper. For the sole purpose of impregnating the next woman who goes in, who they watch.

The numerous accounts of men who have gone into women’s only groups, like knitting circles, taken over and ruined it. Or colonised lesbian spaces. So the lesbians have to go elsewhere, which are then colonised. So the lesbians have nowhere to go.

The shutting down of women only festivals, like Mitchfest which ran for 40 years until transactivists shut it down. The vandalising of the women’s library by transwomen, who subsequently daubed the word transphobic across the door of a rape crisis centre.

The articles which talk about transwomen as sexual partners. How much better than women they are in bed, because they know what men want. And they want to be forced, slapped, etc.

Or the accounts on here of women who man rape crisis telephone lines, and have to deal, daily, with transwomen calling, pretending they have been raped, and making the woman listen to the account. The women can tell immediately that they are fake.

Are there are literally thousands more.

I’m sure you think this is the ‘radicalised’ side of the trans ideology. It is, and it includes the autogynephile side.

What it isn’t is niche.

It’s transsexuals who are now niche.

There are far too many transwomen who don’t sound like women, don’t support women, don’t even like women. But who sound exactly like the men feminists are always concerned about.

Who you should be concerned about. Who transsexuals are concerned about.

And, to a man, they are demanding access to women’s spaces. This is why they violently disagree with a third space. And the only way they can keep nailing it home is to constantly claim that transwomen are women - just a different kind of woman.

If you accept there are ‘different kinds of women’, who behave exactly like misogynistic men everywhere, you’re fucked.

Ereshkigal · 15/12/2017 08:45

I can't celebrate a man who holds ideas about me as a woman that are offensive to me. I can't celebrate a man who demands submission from me regarding his identity and demands I pretend an untruth about both of us.

Hear hear. Neither can I. I cannot and I won't.

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