Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

BTW, I very much like the idea upthread of making gender nonconformity a protected characteristic.

I am mulling that one over. So far, I quite like it too.

Dear all , the Scottish consultation is underway way now! We have had little time to prepare for this. Please support us.

KUA do you have a link to the consultation?

Dear all , the Scottish consultation is underway way now! We have had little time to prepare for this. Please support us

This^

Although the the deadline is a wee bit away so there is time to think about and fill in properly. I will also be going to to see my msp if I can pluck up the courage.

consult.gov.scot/family-law/review-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004/
here WTAF
am still considering my response

Thanks DiD

Thanks Didactylos

Real feminists...

I very much doubt Mrs Pankhurst and the women who were tied down and assaulted to be force fed in prisons or the woman who threw herself under a racehorse so you could have the right as a woman to vote would be passionate about feminism first serving the feelings of men.

I think Mrs Pankhurst would be 'what the fuck'ing all over the shop. And raging. Much raging.

I always think when people post things like "you aren't real feminists" it's because they are annoyed at losing an argument. A bit like "your mum is ugly and you smell of poo!" in the playground

2) The application is accompanied by a sworn oath statutory declaration which if dishonest and fraudulently made carries criminal penalties.

Is there any other process that works this way at the moment, so we can see how it would work in practice? Because this is the bit that I'm really struggling with (like many here). I can't see how this would realistically work, and therefore, it seems like a non-safeguard to me.

Marriage? Giving evidence in court?

C'mon Debbie. The 'real feminists' jibe is a distraction. You and I might define 'feminist' differently. It's irrelevant. Let's focus on the issue.

I'm still wondering whether the Scottish justice system is simply better at protecting women and girls than the English one. Is it?

Their impact assessment makes me suspect that it isn't.

I am not sure about the efficacy of stat decs (for the reasons stated above, eg who would bring an action), but what would the declaration have to say (just "I identify as a woman" or something more?) and what about the statement would have to be false for it to be fraudulent?

I just can't see how you could legally define what would count as fraud in this instance. Al that counts is an individual's own assertion about the private, inaccessible contents of his own mind: there is, by failure to add any other legally defining characteristics of what it is to be trans, no fact of the matter against which it can be checked.

That's the thing: I know, you know, even Debbie knows that Stefonknee for example is a lying little skid mark on the underpants of humanity, but under self ID there would be no legally admissible evidence which could counter his simple assertion that he is a 5 year old girl.

We already see (in the transfer of convicted rapists to the women's estate) that even the most extreme acts of obviously toxic masculinity are not enough to counter the claim that "I feel like a woman therefore I am a woman." There could be no evidence adduced which would prove fraud, none at all.

That the law would allow such a situation to arise is evidence that it's an appallingly badly drafted law.

Marriage? Giving evidence in court?

Hmmm yes, I suppose - are people who are prosecuted for marrying prosecuted for marrying though, or for the intention (immigration, pension fraud or whatever)?

Giving evidence in court I can see - but that's small slots of time, not a person's whole life.

So if someone swears they are a man, and then goes into the women's toilet, does that mean they are the equivalent of 'in contempt' ?

I can't help but feel it's not really workable - I'm a woman, I wear a fair few items of mens clothing (DP and I share) - if I do that, if I'm busting and wander into the men's toilets, if I get mens razors and shampoo or whatever, that's fine, but it wouldn't be for a transwoman? Wouldn't that mean that if they ever consider themselves under the opposite sex
banner, even for obvious, practical reasons then they're in contempt? That feels wrong too, that feels like it's potentially punishing transexuals again. And perhaps because it's early yet, but I can't think of any 'big' stuff that isn't already a crime anyway, so what is it achieving?

*That impact assessment.

MentholBreeze

Swearing on Oath is the foundation under our whole legal system, rather hope it works

I wouldn’t mind talking more about a ‘third space’ for transgender people. On the surface this could be something I could back and I think it would definitely level the playing fields in professional sport so trans people competed with one another. But when I thought about it more it is very different to the transgender campaign for more gender neutral spaces which are open to everyone.

Can you reassure me a third transgender space would be ethical and workable?

Transgender prisons for example? Would all transgender people be locked up together so a MTF sex offender with a FTM person who had committed fraud? Would there be separate units for each trans category so only MTFs are locked up together? Would it still be ethical to house MTF sex offenders with non sex offenders? Wouldn’t there be a need for separate units? To me it would make sense to keep the existing system where each case is assessed separately and all sex offenders are segregated.

And should the government fund separate transgender hostels, care homes and doctors surgeries? This sounds very expensive and I would rather government money was spent on improving existing facilities for women.

And how far would the third space extend? Transgender shops? Transgender businesses? Transgender only zones? How would we identify transgender people from the rest of us? Should they be required to sew the transgender symbol on their clothing? I guess that would make it easier if we ever needed to round them up and take them all away, I mean a lot of them are violent sex offenders, would anyone really miss them?

Please reassure me the third 'transgender only' space is not reminiscent of Nazi Germany as all of a sudden that’s the only way I can see it.

perfectly - what on earth are you going on about - if something is currently sex segregated, then a third space is reasonable.

Shops, businesses, doctors surgeries (outside of specialists) are not sex segregated - why are you going on bizarre flights of fantasy whilst accusing us of scaremongering regarding things that have already happened

Don’t be a nelly, perfectly. We don’t segregate shops, doctors’ surgeries or businesses by sex, so why on earth would we segregate them into third spaces?

perfectly

Trans people already have a space! One designed for their sex.

If they’re not happy with that, an extra gender neutral space in terms of locker rooms and toilets.

Prisons should always be segregated by sex, only.

Likewise hospital wards and sport.

That’s it. It needn’t be that complicated.

Menthol It seems plausible to me that if third spaces are created for care homes, hospitals, prisons, single sex schools and other institutions this could extend to many other places.

Perfectly.

This is an important discussion. How about you assume good faith and not finish interesting and sensible posts with cracks about Nazis? It's tedious, and it's very hard to prevent oneself from thinking you are trying to provoke an angry reaction. Because otherwise- why would you do it?

Haha don't be ridiculous perfectly. I don't believe you are posting in good faith.