Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

What's the point of a GRC these days anyway? We have equal marriage now, pension age is rapidly being equalised and you can change all your docs except your birth certificate without one.

I suspect TAs know that it waters down sex as a protected characteristic further. It's a slap in the face to women. Making it a more casual affair in such a minefield strewn area will mean that no one will dare to challenge anyone.

Perfectly

So you only care about gay marriage and for trans women to be known as women?

You dismiss the rights of these people?

I am fighting for lesbians to have a sexual relationship with those they are attracted to.
I am fighting for women and children to feel safe in public spaces.
I am fighting for trans, gay and autistic children to have the right to a fully functioning healthy body in adulthood, and freedom to have a family, should they so wish.
I am fighting for people to wear whatever clothing (excluding indecent exposure and adhering to relevant uniform) of their choice in public.
I am fighting for children to play with any toy of choice.
I am fighting for people with dementia and learning disabilities to feel safe and not open to being reported for a hate crime.

I've had a lot of questions fired at me but can anyone answer what bathroom a transitioning MTF transsexual is supposed to use? Assuming there is no unisex option.

The male toilets. And harshly punish males that commit violence.

If males didn't commit violence the only reason for segregation of toilets would be biological ones - period bins etc.

We're not going to stop male violence in toilets by everyone but violent males using the female loos. They will just pick on the next most vulnerable. Deal with the cause, not the symptom.

Gender non conforming people (trans or not) should be able to go to the toilet without fear.

I wonder why a sex offender would go to the trouble of self declaring as a woman so they can be a predator in the ladies when to do so would open them up to more severe penalties if caught, as 1) the pre planned to an extreme degree and they would be subject to additional penalties under the court proceedings act for the false Stat Dec. or they could just walk in. IDK which seems simpler?

LangCleg

I didn't deal with the issues you mention as they are not related directly to the GRA, that are EQ2010+ issues and as i mentioned in my post they not being changed at the moment.

As for hate crime, you cant say someone is guilty of a hate crime if there is no actual law that would make their actions a hate crime. As far as the EA goes in relations to a MOP confronting another MOP the EA has no relevance. You don't have to abide by the Equality act in your personal dealings. As for professional relations, if someone is causing a disturbance in your facility it would be a proportional and reasonable step to obtain the identity of the perpetrators. A GRC would not be appropriate to ask for, Everyday ID would, and if the accused can produce those then there is a pretty reasonable chance they are legit. Either way it is not an excuse or defence for bad behaviour nor is any of the challenge a hate crime.

Other points seem to be how to determine an fraudulent or dishonest self ID GRC. That's what the judiciary system does, its their job to judge, under scrutiny i'd say it would likely be pretty damn obvious if it was genuine or not, either way ultimately it would be up to the secretary of state to make a judgement.

I see on another thread, that there has been a change, this issue will be going to national consultation in the Autumn, to take into account the impact on other vulnerable groups.

..and they would be subject to additional penalties under the court proceedings act for the false Stat Dec.

Why? Why would the court decide they aren't trans? That's the whole point of self-ID, you say you are therefore you are.

I'm about 3/4 of the way through reading the thread.

I'm at the bit where perfectly puts forwards some ideas for rules and regulations about when transwomen can be considered women and when they can't. Stuff like women being able to have it officially mentioned on their medical records that they do not accept examination by a transwomen when they request a female HCP.

I don't doubt that perfectly put a bit of thought into that post but it still came across as naive, misogynistic and of course it would be considered transphobic by TRAs.

To me it read as this:
how about we consider transwomen as women in the situations I think are reasonable but not in the ones I don't. And how about we have a long list of rules and regulations and licenses concerning that.

To which I say:
How about we don't bother. It's insulting to both women and trans identified males to pretend that transwomen are female when it suits you but not not when it doesn't.

And why no mention of transmen in your so called feminist proposition??

jellyfrizz

The comment is in relation to my post at 18:27 which was a list of proposals for the reformed GRA. the list included a provision for the stat dec to be subject to the court proceedings act. (that is by virtue of it being a stat dec) and

5. A fraudulently and dishonestly obtained GRC can be withdrawn/overturned via the judicial system.

It gives self ID for the many but any dishonest behaviour can be judged and on the balance of the judicial system a decision made if its genuine or not. You know much like the rest of our lives, get on with it and if your good you wont end up in court.

Its a proposal open for comment, its not "no debate"

I wonder why a sex offender would go to the trouble of self declaring as a woman

The British Psychological Society submitted this to the Women&Equalities hearing

psychologists working with forensic patients are aware of a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females for a number of reasons:
- As a means of demonstrating reduced risk and so gaining parole;
- As a means of explaining their sex offending aside from sexual gratification (e.g. wanting to ‘examine’ young females);
- Or as a means of separating their sex offending self (male) from their future self(female).
- In rare cases it has been thought that the person is seeking better access to females and young children through presenting in an apparently female way.

Such strategies in no way affect risk an indeed may increase it. Some people falsely believe that taking oestrogen and blocking androgen in males will reduce risk of offending, however this is not necessarily the case.

Consequently the Society recommends that the Government give appropriate assistance to transgender people within the criminal justice system; while being extremely cautious of setting law and policy such that some of the most dangerous people in society have greater latitude to offend.

They will likely also be tried as a woman and reported in the news as a woman

Why? Why would the court decide they aren't trans?

Yy. There seems to be a widely held belief that if a trans person commits a crime, particularly one sexual in nature, than they weren't actually trans.

So how do we identify the not really trans people from the trans people?

WRT to licensing of single sex spaces, how about any space that wants to have mixed sex spaces should have a license instead?

I wonder why a sex offender would go to the trouble of self declaring as a woman so they can be a predator in the ladies when to do so would open them up to more severe penalties if caught, as 1) the pre planned to an extreme degree and they would be subject to additional penalties under the court proceedings act for the false Stat Dec. or they could just walk in. IDK which seems simpler?

Being a 'predator' in the toilets might not always involve actually physically assaulting someone though. There will be some men who simply get off on making women uncomfortable in their spaces, without doing anything 'illegal' as such.

Plus if the new GRA changes come in such will the culture be, that you wouldn't even have to bother self declaring because in a society where one can identify in and out of Womanhood as and when one pleases, women won't be able to question full on blokes they find in the loos anyway for fear of being 'transphobic'.

Why? Why would the court decide they aren't trans? That's the whole point of self-ID, you say you are therefore you are.

Exactly.

THERE ARE MALE RAPISTS IN WOMEN'S PRISONS FFS!

The idea that women are somehow going to go out on a limb and complain about men in their facilities, so risking being ejected themselves, and that the owners of said facilities would back up any woman who did complain, knowing they could be taken to court for discrimination and that if it went to court the judge could somehow determine whether the trans person was 'genuine' ... like I said, total bobbins.

i'd say it would likely be pretty damn obvious if it was genuine or not

Then you must be able to give the rest of us a clue. What criteria might the judge use to determine this please?

So how do we identify the not really trans people from the trans people?

What does the current GRA panel do all day then? May as well get rid and replace with something else. Self ID perhaps

PencilsInSpace

So a check and balance in the system that would stop the situation of a sex offender self ID'ing and moving prison is not good enough for you? You still want every law abiding trans person to loose out because of them

Yes, totally agree with Thehairthebod on this.

Debbie6666, I've reposted here something that I posted yesterday. Do you think this is not going to happen?

Shall we try looking at this from a different angle?

Imagine that you are a predatory male (not trans, just a predator) who likes to record women using the toilet. Imagine that you were, at the moment, frequently foiled in your attempts to access women's toilets.

Now imagine that a law is passed stating that if you say that you are the opposite sex, then you just are. No surgery needed, no medical diagnosis, nothing. Furthermore, no certificate actually appears to need to be produced to access opposite-sex facilities. In fact, you hear people arguing that it is transphobic to question someone who 'appears' to be in the wrong toilet, because that person knows their 'gender identity' better than an onlooker.

Imagine that you start to read grovelling apologies from companies who have been accused of transphobia on Twitter, when refusing a man access to women's facilities. You then see these companies declaring that they have now changed their policy (as in the recent TopShop example).

What do you, as our hypothetical predatory man, conclude from this? Do you think it is reasonable to assume that, in a climate such as this, that women and companies would be much less likely to challenge you in the women's toilets? And that this would therefore give you much easier and more frequent access to unsuspecting women and girls?

And as our hypothetical predatory man, wouldn't you take advantage of it?

What does the current GRA panel do all day then?
Consider whether there might be other reasons someone wants to change gender such as mental illness or sexual motivations? Which will be totally absent from self ID. And in the case of mental illness, could prevent the person taking action they later regret, such as altering their body or damaging their fertility.
Identify there is a settled intent for the change. Again, to prevent the person taking action they later regret, such as altering their body or damaging their fertility.

What is the case for changing the current process? I'm not really clear abput it.

What does the current GRA panel do all day then? May as well get rid and replace with something else.

I thought the GRA panel judges the diagnosis of gender dysphoria? (As the original purpose of a GRC was to help people suffering from this.)

But yeah, I agree it's a nonsense thing to judge how someone identifies.

What does the current GRA panel do all day then

Requires a process and some critical thinking before a person is given the right to be treated as the opposite sex in most situations. It's a good compromise between spaces segregated by sex in all circumstances, and spaces never being segregated by sex.

You still want every law abiding trans person to loose out because of them

Surely if they were law abiding they wouldn't be in prison?

Then you must be able to give the rest of us a clue. What criteria might the judge use to determine this please?

A case under screteny could be subjected to a version of the current GRA panel.

Id suggest though a self ID of female but every other piece of documentation being male, a social circle that thinks the dude is a dude would be two pretty big red flags for a start.

Surely if they were law abiding they wouldn't be in prison?

Not all trans people are in prison. They are all (some) affected by the GRA

Id suggest though a self ID of female but every other piece of documentation being male, a social circle that thinks the dude is a dude would be two pretty big red flags for a start

So you would discriminate against those identifying as gender - fluid?

Debbie apologies I was confused by "So a check and balance in the system that would stop the situation of a sex offender self ID'ing and moving prison is not good enough for you? You still want every law abiding trans person to loose out because of them" and thought you were referring to just trans people in prison.