Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Id suggest though a self ID of female but every other piece of documentation being male, a social circle that thinks the dude is a dude would be two pretty big red flags for a start.

But I'm told you can feel like a woman without presenting as one or having to announce to everyone that you are one - it is an inner identity, nothing to do with presentation or stereotypes or pieces of paper.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

I gave a single example of ONE possible situation in response to a question, If i could predict the future and all possible outcomes I would not be sitting here. Each case would be judged on its merits.

Each case would be judged on its merits

Kind of like the GRC then?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Debbie apologies I was confused by "So a check and balance in the system that would stop the situation of a sex offender self ID'ing and moving prison is not good enough for you? You still want every law abiding trans person to loose out because of them" and thought you were referring to just trans people in prison.

No My post was that let trans people self ID, let there be a course of action that the judicial system can over turn it for the bad eggs. See my post at 18:27. in fact here it is

^I see we have had some manifesto's for the GRA so here is what seems like a good start to me. I have kept it on point for the GRA as that is the legislation which is being proposed to be changed to self determination, There are intersections with the Equality act but as that act is not currently proposed for major overhaul I haven't addressed it.

1. The application would require standard ID documents (passport, DL etc) to establish applicants Identity.

2. The application is accompanied by a sworn oath statutory declaration which if dishonest and fraudulently made carries criminal penalties.

3. The application replaces the GRA04 panel and the resultant issued GRC's purpose is to issue an updated birth certificate and make an entry onto the register in the same way that it does under GRA04,

4. The resultant GRC conveys broadly the same rights and protections of the current GRA04 GRC (ie its is only the application process that is significantly changed)

5. A fraudulently and dishonestly obtained GRC can be withdrawn/overturned via the judicial system.

Would this seem like a reasonable solution as it mainly keeps in place the provisions of what we have now which a few people have said they are ok with.

It provides the streamlined process trans people are calling for without the intrusive medical requirements and meaningless waiting period (whats so magical about 2 years!)

It provides for a deterrent with false declarations carrying penalties and gives the opportunity for review and withdrawal of GRC's based on false declarations.^

^
Kind of like the GRC then?^

Yes but for the questionable cases, not the majority

Ah ok, got it - kind of innocent until proven guilty type thing?

I think my issue with that is that men (as a class) are dangerous to women - this is why we have single sex spaces in the first place - and presumably why TIMs don't want to share spaces with males either. So the problem for females and TIMs is how do you stop men from using these single sex spaces?

Who decides which are the questionable cases?

I have led a very sheltered life really, and am very lucky in that respect tbh.

However, when I was at school (all girls) in year 12 we were told it had been discovered that somehow a man had managed to install a video camera into the roof of our changing rooms. The police had found 3 years worth of footage of adolescent girls getting changed for PE and swimming (well actually contorting themselves every which way to cover up, because teenage girls are often uncomfortable changing in front of each other, let alone boys).

Three years. Three years that man had invested in getting the tiniest grainiest 90s camcorder image of a glimpse of teenage female body. He came back to collect footage over that 3 years, each time risking getting caught, as well as installing the camera in the first place.

It really does make me when people say 'oh do you really think men will put on a dress or identify as a woman just so they can perve on women'. Yes. Yes I do. Plus as we said, in this brave new world of self identification they won't even have to bother with the dress.

Id suggest though a self ID of female but every other piece of documentation being male, a social circle that thinks the dude is a dude would be two pretty big red flags for a start.

Debbie yes it would. But do you seriously think that the police and legal system will have the inclination and resources to investigate? That women will always have the confidence to make police reports of 'I suspect that this transwoman isn't really trans'? So much potential for such a system to go wrong and hurt women. I just don't see how it could work reliably in practice.

Thehairthebod

Just get a job as a janitor, or shop floor assistant and assigned to the change rooms. Far more easy ways to install a camera than a sworn oath. Even get paid for some of them!

So is it just your lack of faith in the system or is there no merit in the list i posted.

If you have no faith in the system, do you have faith in the GRA panel we have today?

Previously the GRA process worked fine and generally women accepted transsexuals into their spaces. Because of the broadening of the definition of trans, and the actions of TRAs I now believe (and I know I don't represent everyone on this board) that TIMs should never be treated as women, trans people are going to need to fight for their own spaces for trans people.

How do we detect "fraudulent" declarations that a man is a woman?

To a criminal standard? Beyond reasonable doubt?

The links in my post above show it is already the case that men are tried for sexual offences as women, and no judge (that I can see) has suggested that these men were not heartfelt in their intent to be seen as women.

These men say they are trans and that their being trans should be a MITIGATING factor in sentencing.

Sometimes that argument works, and they get a reduced sentence.

So how can you change the culture to prosecuting - successfully prosecuting - men like these, rather than viewing their situation as something that excuses their offending?

There’s no such thing as a fraudulent transwoman.

How can there be? When men who have been convicted of rape are considered authentic women?

Or is it still a case of how they feel. They can rape children with their penises, but someone, somewhere still think they might be a woman??

Being a woman is a biological category. I don’t know how many more effing times it needs to be said.

I've gone back on my belief as well Itsallgoingtobefine and now think that TIMs are never going to be women and should have separate things.

Once all this activism made me really think about the consequences there was no other option I could see.

We really need to keep certain things for biological women only.

Thehairthebod

I think Rebecca Reilly Cooper said that men will hide in a septic tank full of slurry in order to spy on women.

Why wouldn't such a man just fill in an online form?

Just get a job as a janitor, or shop floor assistant and assigned to the change rooms. Far more easy ways to install a camera than a sworn oath. Even get paid for some of them!

Yes, far easier ways to install a camera than breaking into school grounds and climbing on top of a building. Didn't stop that bloke at my school though.

Debbie
-Huge lack of faith in the system. You were on the thread about the serial flasher in Brighton I think. Rapes. Groping. Abuse. The justice system isn't great at protecting women.

-I would have no problem with your list if I believed that it would only apply to the minuscule number of dysphoric transsexual people who have exhausted every other option for healthy lives. I don't think that non-dysphoric transgender people should be allowed to legally change sex. I don't think that my and my daughter's consent in these matters should be given away permanently to any man who wants it.

• Re GRA panels. They're imperfect. I want to see effective gatekeeping as a goal rather than effectively abolishing any attempt at gatekeeping. I realise that men are already in female spaces without GRCs (I think they shouldn't be unless they have a GRC). But this is a separate issue.

So its a non debate then.

For all the lurkers on the fence. The list I posted is all included in the Scottish GRA consultation.

www.gov.scot/Resource/0052/00527449.pdf

1. The application requires standard ID documents (passport, DL etc) to establish applicants Identity.

P85 Annex H S2 Bullet 3

^confirmation from the person witnessing the statutory declaration of
evidence used to verify the applicant’s identity;^

Additionally Page 171 section 4

2. The application is accompanied by a sworn oath statutory declaration which if dishonest and fraudulently made carries criminal penalties. Page 18 S3.32 + note 22

^However, under the proposed self-declaration system for legal gender recognition, if an
applicant were to make a statement in a statutory declaration that is false
in a material particular, this would be an offence^

3. The Application replaces the GRA04 panel and the resultant issued GRC's purpose is to issue an updated birth certificate and make an entry onto the register in the same way that it does under GRA04,

P86 section 9, 10 , 11
^9. The Scottish Government’s intention is that the general effect of a
GRC would be the same as it is now under section 9 of the 2004 Act.
Scottish applicants would have legal recognition of their acquired gender
from the date of the issue of the certificate.

10. Following the issue of a Scottish GRC to an applicant whose birth or adoption was registered in Scotland, the administrative body processing the application would advise the Registrar General for Scotland (the Registrar General). The Registrar General would be required to issue a new birth certificate to the applicant to reflect their legally recognised gender, as is currently the case.*

4. The resultant GRC conveys broadly the same rights and protections of the current GRA04 GRC (ie its is only the application process that is significantly changed)

Page 36 Part 6

5. A fraudulently and dishonestly obtained GRC can be withdrawn via the judicial system

Page 41 S6.33 Page 88 Section 18

^Rules of Court
6.33. There is provision in the Rules of Court in relation to the 2004 Act.
For example, provision is made in relation to a case referred by the
Secretary of State to quash a decision of the Gender Recognition Panel to
grant an application under section 8(5) of the 2004 Act.61^

^18. However, the Scottish Government considers that it would be
appropriate to retain a power for the Scottish Ministers to apply to a court
to have a Scottish GRC quashed on the basis that it has been secured by
fraud.^

damn formatting

Yes Datun!

Stop faffing around deciding who can/can't be allowed to identify as what, just get rid of the GRC altogether, stop pretending that people can change sex and make the protected characteristic gender non-conforming so that it covers everyone who may be discriminated against because of their presentation whatever they identify as. No paperwork or labels necessary.

Keep sex segregated areas and then actually do something to sort out the cause of the toilet/changing room problem - mostly violent men.

just get rid of the GRC altogether, stop pretending that people can change sex and make the protected characteristic gender non-conforming so that it covers everyone who may be discriminated against because of their presentation whatever they identify as. No paperwork or labels necessary

Keep sex segregated areas and then actually do something to sort out the cause of the toilet/changing room problem - mostly violent men

This is now my position too.

So its a non debate then.

It's a debate - but I don't think the solution you and the Scottish government propose will work, for the reasons I described above. I think it be unenforceable, and unenforced. I think women and girls will be harmed by it.

Do you think it will work?

How?

works fine in other countries

Not according to some of our American and Canadian posters. They have examples of women being denied places in women's refuges for being too transphobic to share with transmen, of children being pressurised in school to transition because they are not gender conforming.