Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Not quite sure why you chose to present the Scottish proposals as your own Debbie or why you think that this approach might be persuasive to anyone reading

I can't see the Scottish solution working unless the Scottish system is significantly better at protecting women and girls than the English one. Is it?

just get rid of the GRC altogether, stop pretending that people can change sex and make the protected characteristic gender non-conforming so that it covers everyone who may be discriminated against because of their presentation whatever they identify as. No paperwork or labels necessary

Keep sex segregated areas and then actually do something to sort out the cause of the toilet/changing room problem - mostly violent men

Gets my vote!

Debbie6666 I know arguing with people on the internet is tiresome - but can you at least try?

How will criminal prosecution of men who "fraudulently" claim to be women work?

How will the burden of criminal proof be achieved? What will the evidence be? How will the jury (or judge) be persuaded?

How will we change the culture so that claiming to be trans is a criminal offence, if made untruthfully, rather than something that gets you off a prison sentence?

This is how much the scottish consultation has considered the impact on women.

Debbie How do you know it works fine in other countries?

Stop faffing around deciding who can/can't be allowed to identify as what, just get rid of the GRC altogether, stop pretending that people can change sex and make the protected characteristic gender non-conforming so that it covers everyone who may be discriminated against because of their presentation whatever they identify as. No paperwork or labels necessary. I too think this sounds sensible.

Lurkers really not your job to wade through loads of proposed legislation and debate it. It's the job of your MP that's what they're there for. Write to them, ask them how THEY are going to address YOUR concerns. Ask them how THEY and whatever Political party they represent are going to ensure safety and equality for woman and girls. How are THEY going to ensure equal opportunities for woman and girls, how are THEY going ensure safety of prisoners who are THEY going to ensure children are safe from making irreversible choices before they are 18! In short how are THEY going to secure YOUR vote.

Woman make up 51% of the population we have a right to be heard. Write, make your voice and your vote count 2018 is the 100th anniversary of us starting to get voting rights. Whatever you think write to your MP and find out what they are doing for you.

works in other countries

In other country Canada: women booted from a women's shelter

Tracey said she was uncomfortable sharing a room with a man transitioning towards being a woman, while Blaine had fled an abusive relationship and was concerned with a man being at a facility which only houses women.

"He wants to become a woman, I mean that is his choice but when a man comes into a women’s shelter who still has a penis and genitals he has more rights than we do," Tracey said.

That’s shocking pencils

Pencils that doesn't surprise me. I honestly wish it did.

As women have found over the years, a piece of paper stating your protected identity does bugger all to protect you from discrimination. -
just a couple of weeks ago there was a survey stating that 1 in 7 HR managers would not employ a woman they thought would go on to have children (inews.co.uk/news/uk/one-seven-employers-surveyed-yougov-reluctant-hire-women-think-may-children/) for instance.

What use is the GRC to a trans person other than for personal validation? It does not stop discrimination and abuse - which is what we should be working on stopping.

WTAF yy

Everyone should write to their mp on this - regardless of whether they agree with me

details of how to do that here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a2995738-Gender-ID-bill-Gender-Critical-To-Do-List#70880543

even better go and see them, or do both!
More details here

Sages factsheet - you can include a link to this in your letter
sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

In the words of @LongWeek [MNetter married to an mp] on that thread Too many MPs think that the GRA changes are all positive. They need more information. Please- email or write to your MP.

titchy that's why I propose you write to your MP and request a licence where certain events and venues can explicitly ban anyone male or born with male anatomy. This protects your spaces.

What on earth is wrong with this being the other way around? Ie. Sex segregation is the default position and events/venues can (if they chose to and let people know this) can say that effecively, it is unisex?

Just get a job as a janitor, or shop floor assistant and assigned to the change rooms. Far more easy ways to install a camera than a sworn oath. Even get paid for some of them!

What on earth makes you think that someone in a highly paid job is going to chuck that in to become a janitor? When they don’t have to.

Or do you think predators can’t be teachers, doctors, lawyers, IT consultants and film producers?

I've seen it all now.Feminists telling women not to worry about wading through the proposals which are written in plain English for the public. But just believe their scare stories and email your likely male MP to sort it all out for them.

Real feminists will be rolling in their graves.

Being a GF is tolerated round here Debbie. FWR is used to them, and people attempting to goad women into losing their temper so they can say ‘see, you are all evil transphobes’ doesn’t work. But nice try. The only people round here who don’t come under the umbrella of ‘real feminists’ would be the ones fighting against female rights, and for the rights of men.

Debbie, your relationship with Feminism is remarkably similar to the trans identified males relationship with womanhood.

Real feminists?

In other country Canada: women booted from a women's shelter

I don't understand this. I thought women were meant to be fine with this sort of thing and it was only us miserable terfs who wouldn't want to sleep in the same room as an unknown penis haver.

That would be me, the real Feminist! 71 year old second wave women's libber Radical Feminist. Howdy do. Nice to meet you.

Real feminists will be rolling in their graves.

Are all the real feminists dead?

But zey were posting here a momen' ago?

This ees a case for Poirot4321

Sorry if that was a bit Allo Allo

Real feminists? What, like real predators have to be janitors? Or frauds?

Real feminists
Did you mean handmaidens?

The thing is, by admitting to a distinction between "true trans" and "people pretending to be trans" Debbie has admitted that she doesn't actually agree with self ID. So unless she's trying to play some sort of "believe two impossible and mutually contradictory things before breakfast game" for her own amusement, she's already conceded the argument.

The instant you look at someone like the infamous Stefoknee and admit that you don't see a woman, you see a pervy and possibly dangerous man (Stefoknee has form for hanging out in children's playgrounds wearing a baby-doll dress), you have accepted that it is wrong to base claims of "gender identity" purely on a male bodied individual's assertion that they feel like a woman.

Once you admit that there is such a thing as people faking it, then you need gatekeeping. If you insist on self-ID as the only criterion, then you can no longer distinguish "true trans" from "piss takers".

(BTW, I very much like the idea upthread of making gender nonconformity a protected characteristic. You don't get to claim you've literally changed sex, so don't get to go into women's prisons as a man, etc. But you do get protection from harrassment and discrimination. As do women who currently face the sack for refusing to wear high heels in some jobs, or schoolgirls who are currently forced to wear skirts and not allowed to wear trouserss. Bring it on!)

The janitor thing is going a bit Scooby Doo.

Velma whips out the hidden camera that the perve has hidden in the toilet cubicle. "And I would've gotten away with it if it hadn't been for you meddling radical feminists..."

Does anyone fancy continuing this on another thread as I think there is much still to discuss and not just "real" feminists

Aw, was going to reply, but see it's been covered. 'Likely male MP'. Most sexist thing I've ever read on here.

Why would you want to put people off writing to their MP Debbie? I know woman who don't vote because they think don't understand enough to and don't want to make the wrong decision. I'd like those woman to vote whether they vote the same way as me or not, I think the more people who engage in the political situation the better. There are many, many posters here who are able to engage at a far higher level than I am able to, I engage at my level and I would like every woman to engage at whatever level they are able to. Not all Woman can read or write, especially not English and I would especially like their views collected. In fact I may well write to my MP now and ask how their views are going to be collected. We live in a multi cultural society and not every woman is able to engage in a written consultation. And it's a good job we have lots of female MP's as some woman would not be able to meet with a male one.