Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Get the trans community to drop the idea of self-ID and then we can talk.

Get the trans community to drop their claim to be the same materially as the opposite sex, particularly for males to be women, and for the males to stop pushing for access to female spaces. Acknowledge that women have rights too. Then I will talk.

A veneer of Peace and love and heart emoticons whilst removing rights from the vulnerable women in our society is not compromise. It is Gaslighting.

The provision of women's space in the Equalities act is needed. Just listen to yesterday's Womens hour about the success of womens only groups for alcohol addiction. It worked, more women completed the programme and more women came to the programme - it is needed.

If you fill womens spaces with men who identifying as women, they disappear. This is one of the unintended consequences in Los Angeles - a men's hostel filled with men, and a women's hostel filled with ......... men.

Datun reading your post I can totally understand why feminists are making the trans activists furious. Truly vile post.

Openness, compromise and a willingness to listen will initiate the same respect and consideration from the ‘other side’.

Again, the words, but no substance.

If I agree to call all transwomen she that’s my compromise. What’s their’s?

I was friends with and sharing bathrooms with trans and GNC people before most of these activists were born FGS. We all rubbed along fine. Us mean feminists were allies back in the olden days. But self-ID and aggressive male intrusion has ruined relationships.

This exactly. And, I'd like to add, it wasn't mean old feminists who a) opened my eyes and b) nagged me into finally adding my voice to the rising chorus against current transactivism. It was my longstanding transsexual friend, who understands that this activism is attacking the protections she has as well as the protections women have.

Would it be accurate then to liken this Vocal/violentTran Activism to Radical Islam? It seems to me that, just as it is unfair to judge most peaceful Muslims upon the actions of a few lunatics, the same could be said for the trans community?

No, OP, it wouldn't. Firstly, the more accurate analogy would be with MRAs (men's rights activists). Secondly, if parliament was considering legislating in favour of imposing Sharia law or other radical Islamist demands, I think you might have something to say. Parliament is considering legislating in favour of the demands of extreme transactivism.

I do not believe we should adopt the position of other cultures - for example some cultures dictate a women should wear a hijab in public - women of that culture are free to wear whatever they please but I do not believe all women should have to wear a hijab.

But re-defining 'woman' and 'female' and denying that biological differences matter is the same as making us all wear a wear a hijab - it affects all women.

perfectlywretched

Of course it makes them furious!

Do you think I’ve invented it??!!!!!

Do you realise how ridiculous you sound. These are documented things that I’ve said. They are on here, I can post links. All of it. Every. Last. Bit.

Using words, tell me why I am wrong for pointing out what they say.

atun to begin with I would suggest listening to transgender voices and showing respect for pronouns. They are telling us that referring to a trans woman as ‘he’ is violent. Most on here will scoff and put their fingers in their ears and tell me that men are the violent ones

Heh. There's a thread on aibu at the moment about being called Mrs HisFirstName HisLast Name (the OP is irate at this). There's a great swag of posters telling the OP she is being ridiculous and should have better things to worry about. Maybe pop over there and explain the concept of 'violence' to them as it pertains to names? Meanwhile, whilst I do think that being called the right name is quite important (and a systemic issue for women) I also tend to think that men's violence against women - you know murder, assault, domestic violence, rape, sexual assault is probably a little more real. Maybe TRAs could support women in campaigns against these forms of male violence against women without making it all about trans?

Stating biological fact is not violence. Anyone who says that obviously hasn't been up close and personal with actual violence. It's emotional blackmail and gaslighting.

There is a compromise. It's on the statute books already. The law as it currently stands has being trans as a protected characteristic, while requiring people who wish to gain that legal status to apply for a GRC, thus hopefully keeping out most of the piss-takers and predatory men who would otherwise piggy-back on self identification to gain access to women's spaces and places where women are vulnerable. The current law also allows exemptions for those rare occasions where biology matters - so women can still ask for a female doctor/midwife/nurse for intimate exams, trans prisoners wishing to transfer to the female estate are considered on a case-by-case basis

I will point out that the piss takers and predatory men can already take advantage of the EA to access women's spaces, however it's not normalised for males to be in women's spaces so fewer men try than if it was made much more publically acceptable. And the exemptions exist. We need to put pressure on organisations to make sure they will be used.

And block self ID, which whatever transactivists say will have an effect on women's protections and spaces. It is a criminal offence in many circumstances to disclose that someone with a GRC is the opposite sex. We don't want people, many of whom in my experience are quite unstable, being handed that power without any gatekeeping at all, which is what is being proposed. Also regarding prison if a MTF person has a GRC they are automatically put into the female estate.

OP how about you put your exact same original post on various transgender forums and give us the links to your the threads here?
I would be fascinated to see the responses you get.

Yes, do come and tell us the outcome of that!

Datun some transgender people do terrible things. Some men do terrible things. Some women do terrible things. To imply all the terrible things done by transgender people is BECAUSE they are transgender is hate speech pure and simple.

Datun some transgender people do terrible things. Some men do terrible things. Some women do terrible things. To imply all the terrible things done by transgender people is BECAUSE they are transgender is hate speech pure and simple

Except Datun didn't do that.

keep saying ‘define a woman’ - but my point is to deny someone born biologically male the right to identity as a woman is to deny the very existence of transgender people

No it is not. This is a manipulative spurious argument. Saying a male is male is not in any way "denying their very existence".

I dont think ive ever read a vile post from datun

They seem to try to be as measured as possible, im not sure ive read a slur coming from them, they generally remain calm, they obviously have a wealth of knowledge

Its more than possible to disagree with some or all they write

But its not vile

perfectlywretched

Seriously, listen. You asked why feminists are antagonistic.

It’s because there is a large, influential cohort driving the narrative. Everything I wrote is completely true.

It’s easy to dismiss them as outliers. Except SIX of the people in my post write for mainstream media. Are on the TV!

Is what I wrote distasteful? You bet your ass. But I didn’t make any of those claims.

If it shocks you, it’s because you aren’t seeing any of it.

Just open your eyes.

It's been a while since I've come across mumsnetters quite as obtuse as certain people on this thread.

Just open your eyes.

She won't. She is much more comfortable with her cognitive dissonance and pretending we're all terrible people being mean.

And what yet said

Datun Hitler started off with 'the Jews are doing this, the Jews are doing that' and look how that ended up.

Lumping together all the terrible behaviour committed by a certain group of people because of their one shared characteristic is inciting hate on that group.

If all the terrible things that you outline really happened (which very much doubt is true) then judge the individuals, not the fact they are trans.

Stating biological fact is not violence. Anyone who says that obviously hasn't been up close and personal with actual violence. It's emotional blackmail and gaslighting.

Absolutely. I'm afraid I can't take anyone seriously who calls disagreement violence. I will either laugh or get very angry, being a survivor of actual male violence and all. As I know many on this site are.

Would it be accurate then to liken this Vocal/violentTran Activism to Radical Islam?

I think a religious analogy would be an atheist discussing transubstantiation with the Spanish Inquisition. One side is saying 'I disagree', the other is screaming 'burn the heretic!'.

If all the terrible things that you outline really happened (which very much doubt is true) then judge the individuals, not the fact they are trans.

They did happen. And what is concerning here is that these people are asked to help formulate policy around trans issues while women are ignored. They have been given a platform for their misogyny. So you have trans organisations openly supporting violent action against feminist women. That. Really. Happened.

I had forgotten how rude perfectly is

BECAUSE they are transgender is hate speech pure and simple.

I didn’t say it was because they are trans! It’s because they are men.

And it ranges, like it does with many men, from a lack of understanding about women’s issues (biology is meaningless), to misogyny (unshaved legs are dirty, hot to fuck someone who is crying), to fetishist behaviour (changing room masturbation, rape crisis line).

Believe me, when I first started to drill down into this, I was shocked. No one likes to think or read about this sort of stuff.

Unfortunately, these people exist. But they are all men. If you accept, which you surely must, that most predatory behaviour comes from men, it is exactly these men who will benefit from the law.

There are FAR more predatory men in this world, than there are transwomen. The people in my post call themselves trans-women. Some of them definitely are. But since one can not make the slightest bit of a distinction, where does that leave us?

I can’t say they’re not trans. They say they are.

Which is the problem.

Try reading Miranda Yardley‘s blog. She is a transsexual. She talks about AGP, women’s issues. The lot. Very balanced and coming from someone in the community.