Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

And what do you mean by "dangerous"?

They mean they don't agree with women expressing views about sex and gender identity that they don't approve of. It's violence just the same as if you punched them.

With respect to TRAs and radical Islam. In one case we police the radicals and try to dissuade them because we know they cause harm to society. We call that harm out and condemn it in the media. We exclude those people from power and influence. We don't talk about how the "beheaders" are a few bad apples but the rest of ISIS is fine.
In the other case we give the extremists a platform in the media, our government make policy decisions based on their input and we deny that any disturbing stuff they do (e.g. the list datun posted) is in anyway linked to the group as a whole.
That is precisely the problem. And the difference in how those 2 groups are treated makes it so obvious to me that racism and misogyny play a massive part in this. As a society, we literally cannot accept an extremist movement run by white males. In fact we blame the "white feminists"/TERFS for talking about the extremism.

For the millionth time, no-one but no-one is saying that trans people don't exist.

Many of us are simply saying that people with male bodies are not women.

This is not a radical or new idea.

They are telling us that referring to a trans woman as ‘he’ is violent

I have seen this so many times, but I still don't understand it

I can understand having a visceral reaction to the use of the "wrong" pronoun (much as I feel about cis, or indeed cunt). But that's not violence - violence is a punch in the face, or a slap, or being grabbed by the arms and shaken, or thrown across the room, or pushed to the floor, or kicked in the stomach... Feminists do not do these things to TRAs. Men do these things to women.

Guardian - without going too far down this particular rabbit hole, there are plenty of example of Islamists deliberating infiltrating civic society in the UK and other Western countries, and Islamist groups advising the Government on issues such as girls wearing the hijab in school. It's an acknowledged tactic of groups such as Hizb ut-Tahrir

I still don't get why referring to a woman as Mrs Hisfirstname Hislastname (when she objects) isn't violent then ...

You know what makes me sad and weary? That we are not being allowed to have a public discussion about this issue. Natal women just have to accept it as a fait accompli with no attempt to work out ways for both sides to adapt to the new status quo. Trans Rights trump women's rights at every turn. And lesbians are being thrown under the proverbial bus. So very depressing.

And I really don't know how it's happened. Natal women are still struggling in some places for the right to be called Ms!

You know what makes me sad and weary? That we are not being allowed to have a public discussion about this issue. Natal women just have to accept it as a fait accompli with no attempt to work out ways for both sides to adapt to the new status quo. Trans Rights trump women's rights at every turn. And lesbians are being thrown under the proverbial bus. So very depressing

And to add to this, this is at a time when women still earn less than men, are subject to men's violence, often live in old age in poverty (especially if they live without a man), face a glass ceiling and other forms of discrimination at work, do the lion's share of the domestic labour in heterosexual partnerships and so on... in other words we still have not won our old battles. Now we have to fight a new one.

Oh another thread full of arguing against this ridiculous 'trans people do exist!' rubbish. Noone ever says trans people do not exist. So quite why is it always argued against?

You know what I have found from extensive reading (and from questioning friends/acquaintances). That its almost always transsexual women who accept that they are male and have different needs to female people. Where its almost always 'transgender' (and more specifically...'non-op') who feel the need to scream on about how male and female are exactly the same and such. And that lesbians should bow down to the almighty dick. Always always, the ones claiming to actually BE female and that everyone is transphobic for not recognizing males as females, are 'lesbian'.

my point is to deny someone born biologically male the right to identity as a woman is to deny the very existence of transgender people.

Are you saying I am not really a lesbian because I would not discount a relationship with someone trans?

You like your extreme black and white thinking, don't you? Has it occurred to you that that's your main problem here? Because people are explaining and explaining and you're clearly not processing it.

my point is to deny someone born biologically male the right to identity as a woman is to deny the very existence of transgender people.

You cannot identify as a woman if you cannot explain what a woman is.

And whats wrong with identifying as a 'transwoman'? Why does it have to be woman? Denying the trans part, is erasing the experience/existence of trans people.

Please excuse me if I don’t articulate well. I’m not always very good at getting my point across. Long before I came across the mn feminism forums and an alternative point of view, I was, from the point of a trans ally starting to question the “violence” of language of the trans activists. I use the term violence as it was advocating actual violence (die in a fire, die cis scum, choke on my lady dick etc) and was exclusively aimed at women.

I felt uncomfortable with this evolution of trans activism. I have had many trans friends over the years and every single one just wanted to get on with life quietly and without the drama they’d had in their previous incarnations. They wanted to quietly blend into their assumed gender/sex and just be. They still do. They distance themselves from the flagwavers, shouters and lady-dick owners as they’re ashamed of the behaviour in their so called name. I’m not convinced TRA are actually representative of the wider trans movement or experience but they’re the loudest so becoming the public face of transgenderism.

I’ve found the mn feminism arguments very persuasive and sensible without the threats of physical violence or doxxing. I may not share all of the views expressed on the threads but I certainly understand the fears that come from the current situation and potential law changes. Many of the analogies in previous posts explain perfectly what the problem is. I think there’s a very tiny minority of feminists who wouldn’t want trans people to be able to live happily ever after in peace and safety in whatever guise they choose. I certainly haven’t seen more than one or two genuinely transphobic posts or hate speech towards trans here and I’ve lurked longer than I’ve posted.

One of my interpretations of the problem isn’t that all trans people are problematic but that the most vocal are making radical demands that places women’s rights in danger which in turn places women in danger and it’s not necessarily danger from genuine trans people but those who have a different agenda beyond trying to figure out how to live their own life in peace.

I read an article recently about a doctor who went all through medical school training and years of professional training focussing on puberty, to sexually abuse children, he went to great lifelong lengths to access children. While I’m in no way conflating trans with paedophilia, I am saying that there will be men who will manipulate current trans radicalism as an approach to mask accessing vulnerable people. Abusers will go to great lengths to do what they want to do. So if a fully be-penised man can claim he feels like a woman today therefore is legally a woman at that point in time and can legally go naked into women’s changing rooms filled with 12yo girls, what’s to stop abusers claiming to identify as a woman for the day and having full support of the law to be there? TRAs are makIng this kind of scenario easier for abusers. The danger isn’t just aimed at women and children but also genuine trans people who Will be vulnerable to this behaviour too.

I don’t believe genuine trans people are sexual deviants or predators but I do believe sexual predators will piggyback on the back of The TRA movement to access their victims. Trans radicalism is making it too easy for them. This is in my understanding one of the biggest problems feminists have. There’s so much more I could say but i’ll Stop here Please correct me if I’m wrong. (Apologies for being long winded)

And what does lesbian even mean if it can cover a situation where a biological man (who identifies as a woman, whatever that is) has a sexual relationship with either a woman or even another biological man who identifies as a woman? Two men in a sexual relationship together are both lesbians? A man in a sexual relationship with a woman and they are both lesbians? Really?

As a word it becomes entirely meaningless.

How will lesbians who actually don't want to have a sexual relationship with a male-bodied person refer to themselves?

"I’m not convinced TRA are actually representative of the wider trans movement or experience but they’re the loudest so becoming the public face of transgenderism."

I don't think they are either. But there is something very ironic that this seems to be a case of NATWALT. And, just as with NAMALT, natal women are somehow expected to be the ones to deal with those that are.

"Moderate" transwomen seem no more willing to call out their transactivist sisters than men are to call out MRA.

Totally agree Bertrandrussell - TRAs are silencing everyone and anyone who dares to speak up gets very publicly attacked. I’m guessing because women have had this treatment longer and from larger sections of society, we’re brave enough to speak out. I’ve seen trans people speak out and the result was nasty. I do u swear and the silence but it’s not right to leave it up to just women to call TRAs out.

I’ve no idea what I do you swear was meant to mean now. Apologies

Personally I feel sad and weary that when I go onto Lesbian dating sites about a third of the people on there have cocks and still expect me to date them.

Was told yesterday that even the word Lesbian is transphobic, exclusive and hurtful.

Happy to talk trans rights after they stop trying to crap all over my hard fought for rights as a gay woman.

I’m not convinced TRA are actually representative of the wider trans movement or experience but they’re the loudest so becoming the public face of transgenderism.

This.

This this this.

I read an article recently about a doctor who went all through medical school training and years of professional training focussing on puberty, to sexually abuse children, he went to great lifelong lengths to access children*

Yes quite. This is one of the things that hugely illuminates the patriarchy. That even though there are so many cases where this happens, that there's academic study and research showing the lengths some men go to to fulfil their sexual fetish, we must not mention it and pretend when it does happen it's some kind of freak event.

Autisticappropriation - not long winded. A very clear and sensible post.

Any thoughts on the above @SmiledWithTheRisingSun?

Thanks Oleannas re Hizb ut-Tahrir

FattyCat I think you're using the wrong dating sites, no lesbian sites I am aware of have any transgender users at all, let alone one third.

I would recommend Gaydar girls and guardian soulmates.