Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

It was my understanding that one of the best propaganda tools the Nazi's had was the hitler youth. When I'm drawing parallels with history I don't see feminists as the Nazi's.

I'd love to see trans activists who were willing to compromise, but I've not seen any evidence of that yet.

I know feminists are women, and society expects women to put others first (to move over and to placate), but we're feminists because we want women to not be the second sex, the ones at the back of the queue. We want to be freed from these awful societal restrictions, the ones placed on us merely because we dared be born with female bodies. I'm tired of us being the ones expected to compromise.

For so damn long we've had to adapt our behaviour because men won't adapt theirs, we have whisper networks and constant vigilance, we have to learn placatory language and how we are expected to come across.

So no. I'm done conceding and making changes because those born with penises are too fucking used to privilege to make an effort themselves.

It's not a compromise when only one group is expected to give something up.

Why does it always come back to Hitler?

Nobody is inciting hate. Datun has merely compiled a (quite short) list of examples from several prominent trans people to highlight why it is categorically not feminists being big meanies which is the problem. I do not see where or how anyone is inciting hate.

to deny someone born biologically male the right to identity as a woman is to deny the very existence of transgender people.

you are proposing we pretend a lie.

Your suggestion is literally that to deny someone born biologically male [ie XY chromosomes penis testicles etc] the right to identity as a woman [ovaries, vagina, uterus] to deny the very existence of transgender people.

You are advocating that grown adults in a civilised society be compelled to lie and pretend something which makes no sense.

We absolutely should deny people the 'right' to force society to pretend to accept a lie. People have the right to believe untruths. Not the right to demand others pretend to believe them.

Unless you are advocating that the beliefs of Jews should be imposed upon Christians, or perhaps the beliefs of Christians upon Muslims. Or that atheists are denying the very existence of Hindu people?

Can't you see that holding a belief is a right, but expecting and demanding others validate that belief at the expense of their own is wrong?

And if two beliefs conflict, FACTS should prevail where the law is concerned.

If all the terrible things that you outline really happened (which very much doubt is true) then judge the individuals, not the fact they are trans.

I swear to you, they not only happened, I left out almost all of it.

Where have you been?

And yes, of course I judge the individuals. Which is why I mention Miranda. There are several more like her.

I’m not judging trans people on the basis of these people.

Men as a class, commit 98% percent of sexually violent crime. Identifying as a woman, doesn’t change that - I can link to the studies.

This isn’t about keeping trans people out of anything. This is about sex segregation. Changing the law will allow any person, trans or otherwise access.

You seem to think that transwomen have some kind of special pass. That they don’t conform to any kind of male pattern. They do.

Out of Interest, do you have any idea of what autogynephilia is? And how many transwomen have it? It’s a specifically Male fetish. Women don’t have it.

If you could sort out the AGP individuals from the transsexuals, go for it. I’ll be right behind you.

I find the idea that lesbian women should want to have sex with people with penises and are being transphobic if they disagree one of the most disturbing aspects of this whole issue. Can any of the "Mumsnet is vile" people please comment on this?

Hear hear @Rufustherenegadereindeer1, @Datun is my new idol for the very fact that posts are not vile. They set out discussion, reason and debate. All points are eloquently explained.

As are several other regular posters on all this.

Lumping together all the terrible behaviour committed by a certain group of people because of their one shared characteristic is inciting hate on that group

No, it is not. It's not even terribly clear what you mean above. However, saying for example that instances of terrible behaviour such as rape and sexual assault are crimes committed mostly by men mostly against women is not 'inciting hate' against men. It's stating a fact.

They are telling us that referring to a trans woman as ‘he’ is violent.

And then telling women to 'suck their dick' or 'diaf' if they don't - which of these two acts is actually a threat of violence? The idea that violence is equivalent to saying something someone doesn't like is unbelievable gaslighting. Walking around, carrying a baseball bat with blue and pink stripes to women's parades is not equivalent to being in that parade carrying a sign with a uterus on it. One is threatening, one is just reality.

People keep saying ‘define a woman’ - but my point is to deny someone born biologically male the right to identity as a woman

In order to have an identity as something, you do need to be able to articulate what that something is. Otherwise it's meaningless at best, or if that thing already exists, and you want to change the definition, then it's potentially abuse of the original definition.

is to deny the very existence of transgender people.

Nope, it's denying that they're women, not denying that they want to be women, not denying that they exist.

Whereas re-defining women to be anyone who wants to be, that is erasing women - that's removing me and many other actual women from the group - because we are women, we don't mind being women, but we don't 'identify' as women.

Barrack I don't believe in God, it doesn't mean I think everyone should deny the existence of God. I am not trans myself, I don't think trans people should be belittled, disrespected, ridiculed and have their existence denied.

This is one of the best discussions between a feminist and a transwoman about much of what the op says.

This is not TRA.

This is what we need more of on both sides.

However, saying for example that instances of terrible behaviour such as rape and sexual assault are crimes committed mostly by men mostly against women is not 'inciting hate' against men

ALL rapes are committed by men. No rapes are committed by women because they have no penis.

perfectly I am glad you've brought religion into this.

You don't believe in God? Great. Now say I did, we should both be able to coexist quite happily right? My beliefs don't impact yours.

What if I thought your non-belief somehow invalidated my own? What if I thought your non-belief literally erased me?

Should I get to enforce my belief on you?

perfectlywretched

Tell me how we can support access for genuine transsexuals, whilst denying access to those who aren’t.

I’m pointing out to you, that getting rid of sex segregation is dangerous to women. And why.

Now you tell me how we can resolve it.

How? Do you actually have an idea of how?

A transwoman who was on here last year said they didn’t want anyone perving on them in the toilets any more than women do. And they agreed that we need to keep predators and autogynephiles out.

How?

" I am not trans myself, I don't think trans people should be belittled, disrespected, ridiculed and have their existence denied"
Neither do I. What are your thoughts on lesbians being called transphobic because they do not want to have sex with a lesbian who has a penis?

Do you think it's OK for women who have male bodies to compete against women with femIle bodies in sport?

Do you think that a person who has grown up with the advantages and privileges of being male should be able to access measures put in place to level the playing field for women?

I have many other questions like these-questions which I think have to b considered and discussed before we can come to a new status quo. But those 3 will do for a start.

Waiting for the tumbleweed to blow across the plains.

perfectlywretched

I’ve put across my side of the argument. Now you put across yours.

Show me a transwoman online, any transwoman, who is campaigning for access to women’s spaces who doesn’t show signs of misogyny.

ALL rapes are committed by men. No rapes are committed by women because they have no penis

Yes, I know that that is true for English law. Not sure it is universally true. Sexual assault can be committed by women though, I believe. But I was mostly trying to illustrate a different point.

I have no clue how you think this would work, wretched.

A person of the opposite sex to me believes I should treat him as if he were the same sex as me. You tell me that my belief (you are not the same sex as me) should be subordinate to his belief (you must pretend we are the same sex) or else I am denying his existence?

My belief is factual. His is not. Why have you decided the problem is with my belief being asserted?

I deny the beliefs of flat earthers. Even if they feel hurt. I expect society to continue to operate on the premise that the earth is a sphere. Im not denying the existence of flat earthers. They exist. They are free to their false beliefs, and society should refuse to make accommodations to them.
It is hypocrisy to see the sense in this scenario, yet lecture people about 'denying the existence' of transpeople. We know that PEOPLE exist, and that they believe themselves to be the opposite sex. Refusing to validate that belief is exactly what we should be doing. Unless we want a society where the law can compel us to pretend all sorts of things that are demonstrably untrue based on what is currently a popular ideology.

There was a time when flat earth theory was also popular. The popular ideology isn't necessarily right. Don't pressure people to suppress facts, science, truth and reality in favour of a belief system.

NO ONE IS DENYING THAT TRANS PEOPLE EXIST.

Thought exercise.

A right wing Christian man, who also holds strong views on race and sex, inferiority and superiority, approaches you, an atheist.
He demands that in order to show you respect him, you should utter the phrase "God is good" when you talk to him or about him.

Do you comply?

The religion thing is pertinent, I think.

I am not Jewish, my boss is Jewish.

Do I get to identify as Jewish? Apparently not. Big no-no.

Should I insist that I am Jewish anyway, despite having little knowledge of Judaism? It's about yarmulkes and synagogues, right?

Conversion to Judaism is difficult, surely they should make it easier for me? I've been through a lot. Actually, I don't even want to covert.

Do I get to define what the word Jew actually is? And say that the word Jew means cis-Jews and trans-Jews.

And should I insist my Jewish boss is actually a bigot if he doesn't agree with me?

It is okay for me to win scholarships and awards earmarked for Jewish people?

It is okay for me to take up a position reserved for Jews in which I represent Jewish people?

The answer to all of that is of course not.

The answer to all of that is of course not.

No, exactly. Why don't people grasp this is what is being asked for? Why do they have no respect for women? Why are women's feelings not felt to be important?

Barrack I don't believe in God, it doesn't mean I think everyone should deny the existence of God. I am not trans myself, I don't think trans people should be belittled, disrespected, ridiculed and have their existence denied.

Excellent, so then you would also be happy saying these are also both reasonable?

I am not a man myself, I don't think male people should be belittled, disrespected, ridiculed and have their existence denied.

and

I am not a woman myself, I don't think female people should be belittled, disrespected, ridiculed and have their existence denied.

Because if you do, and I can't see why you wouldn't, how can you then also support TAs telling women that there is no difference between them and transwomen, that even suggesting there is is violence, and making them change the words they use to describe themselves? Being told they're hysterical for fearing men being allowed into all their spaces.

How is that not being be belittled, disrespected and ridiculed? How is that not having their existence denied then?

Apologies - I see there are a lot more posts, but I wanted to respond to the OP on this:
Would it be accurate then to liken this Vocal/violentTran Activism to Radical Islam? It seems to me that, just as it is unfair to judge most peaceful Muslims upon the actions of a few lunatics, the same could be said for the trans community

I would compare trans activists and ISIS like this:
Similarities:

1. Driven by a virulent seething misogyny
2. A few deranged psychopaths pulling the strings and manipulating the 'lost' youth to act as footsoldiers.
3. A determination to force the rest of the world to fall in line with their belief and willingness to use and follow out threats to make this happen.
4. Exploitation of 'inclusive' policies, services and public facilities to further their aims.
5. Self-radicalisation over the internet.

Differences:

1. Radical Islamists are numerous, they leaflet, meet face to face, much of this happens within prisons and do a lot of organising in person in secret, whereas trans extremism is largely acted out in the open on social media and other online activities, often falsely bolstering their relatively small numbers with sock puppets and bots.
2. Although radical Islamic preachers believe themselves to be genuine Muslims they have been kicked out of mosques and shunned for their extreme views. Transgender activists don't have their own organaisation or identity, they parasitically target other groups such as LGB and feminist groups and insist they are front and centre of their 'hosts' movements, marches, rallies, agendas, etc. They cannot be kicked out or shunned, because they co-opt the language and arguments of their hosts or accuse objectors of transphobia and insure they are no-platformed and removed from office.
3. Radical Islamists do not hold respected offices but trans extremists hold positions as counsellors, women's officers, academic professorships, key advisors to the NHS & schools.
4. Radical Islamists see themselves as 'at war' with everyone else, transgender extremists are taking over from within.

I could go on...