Feeling sad & weary that feminists & trans women are constantly pitted against one another?

[SmiledWithTheRisingSun]

That's it really.

Instinctively I feel very protective of feminism and all that those incredibly brave women before us achieved. Thanks Nanna 💛

I totally support the idea of protecting women only spaces and don't obviously want a bunch of women-hating rapists in female prisons etc

BUT... surely there's a happy medium to be found ladies?!

Surely there must be reasonable people in the trans community who understand the need to protect all that feminism has achieved?

The same way that I'm a white middle aged woman who doesn't feel the need to demand entrance to a black feminist group. I can support their right to exist without being undermined by it.

What to we call these feminist / trans sympathisers? Please enlighten me wise MNERS.

Love from,
A middle aged feminist who wishes you all peace and love X

Why are feminists so ‘mean’ about this?

Well there’s the issue of gender stereotyping, which damages women.

There the confusion of GNC children and the treatment of harmful drugs/surgery.

There’s the redefinition of the word woman, rendering women’s rights ‘people’s rights’.

The minimising of women’s biology - the basis of their oppression.

Sport.

Men representing feminism.

Diversity quotas.

Prisons.

All dismissed.

Well there are misogynists and predators.

“Yeah, but not transwomen”

Ok, here are some prominent transwomen who are.

“OMG - why are feminists so mean!”

Literally can’t win.

Popchyk bad analogy. Of course if you wished to convert to Judaism you should be able to. If you wanted to challenge other Jews on their beliefs, why not? A lot of liberal Christians challenged right wing Christians over acceptance of gay marriage. Some of these liberal Christians were probably recent converts.

Can non Christians challenge Christians on their beliefs?

perfectly I am a left-wing Christian. I am fine with others challenging me on my beliefs, they should have the right to do that. But neither I nor they should be able to write our personal religious beliefs into legislation and demand that other people not only abide by them, but share them.

“Gender identity” is the same. I appreciate it’s very meaningful to other people, I fully support their right to believe in it and to talk about it. But it’s a personal belief. It shouldn’t be written into legislation and it shouldn’t be taught in schools as fact.

Someone saying “I don’t believe God exists” is not committing violence against me or denying my existence. Why is that not the same if you replace “God” with “gender identity”?

Can you answer my questions, perfectly?

I don't want to convert fully, you know. I wish to retain my atheist experience, it is important to me. Insisting on full conversion is trans-Jew phobic and offensive to me.

Do you think I should be able to define the word Jew?

Perfectly-could you consider my post of 9.47 please?

They are telling us that referring to a trans woman as ‘he’ is violent.

Well they're wrong then, aren't they? If a transwoman has asked me to refer to her as 'she', and I don't, then I am being rude, not violent. I am quite clearly not physically attacking her, nor even threatening to do so.

Do you think it is violent when they refer to us as 'cis-women', when we have asked them not to?

What about when they refer to us as TERFs?

What about when they talk about wanting to 'beat up TERFs' or 'die in a fire, cis-scum'?

Most on here will scoff and put their fingers in their ears and tell me that men are the violent ones.

When so many of us have unfortunately had first-hand experience of male violence - actual, physical beatings, rape and sexual assault - why do you think we are likely to roll our eyes at any attempt to pretend that a lack of courtesy is the same thing?

Popchyk yep sure, if you didn't want to take on board every aspect of traditional Judaism but still considered yourself Jewish then there is no reason your voice should not be heard.

I thought you had to have a Jewish mother to be Jewish?

Anyway, who do you think gets to be the arbitrator of if your Jewish or not? The individual or the Jewish community?

I don't believe perfectly can answer any other points

They are sticking to what they feel safe with

And thats not necessarily a bad thing

I virtually always stick to what i feel safe with

Also ISIS consider themselves to follow Islam. No Muslim I know considers ISIS to follow Islam.

Do ISIS follow Islam?

MN has become an increasingly dangerous space for trans people, and for trans allies to navigate.

What's your evidence for this, SharkSkin?

And what do you mean by "dangerous"?

Oh okay Bertrand

What are your thoughts on lesbians being called transphobic because they do not want to have sex with a lesbian who has a penis?

I am a lesbian and would take offence at anyone telling me who and who I am not allowed to fancy. I would not discount a relationship with someone trans if I was attracted to that person which is I think the clumsy point the trans activists are trying to make. Many people would discount a relationship with someone trans.

Do you think it's OK for women who have male bodies to compete against women with femIle bodies in sport?

No - I am with the Olympics committee on this one that a person needs to have fully transitioned.

Do you think that a person who has grown up with the advantages and privileges of being male should be able to access measures put in place to level the playing field for women?

Yes, just as a FTM trans person should be able to grow a beard, compete in male sports and be treated by society as male.

Also (L)Ian Huntley has been identified as guilty by a jury (and the public).

(L)Ian Huntley identifies himself as innocent.

(L)Ian Huntley is in Jail. Is it right that his self identity has been overridden in this way?

Seriously I could go on, the hard of thinking are really starting to piss me off.

The majority of the general public will just let the rest of the general public get on with their lives however they see fit. The majority of the general public will also identify self ID as fucking batshit once they think about it.

@perfectlywretched I don't think the Olympics committee require trans women to have fully transitioned (by which I'm assuming you mean surgery?). Just to have reduced their testosterone levels to the lowest levels that you might expect for a man, for a year before competing.

I am a lesbian and would take offence at anyone telling me who and who I am not allowed to fancy. I would not discount a relationship with someone trans if I was attracted to that person which is I think the clumsy point the trans activists are trying to make. Many people would discount a relationship with someone trans

In respect to lesbians, the issue seems to be that many lesbians would discount a relationship with an individual who had a functioning penis and/or XY chromosomes. This is their right and prerogative. Lesbianism is about attraction to women and castration does not a woman make.

"Do you think that a person who has grown up with the advantages and privileges of being male should be able to access measures put in place to level the playing field for women?

Yes, just as a FTM trans person should be able to grow a beard, compete in male sports and be treated by society as male."

i don't understand how your answer relates to the question........

Yetanotherspartacus

* Lesbianism is about attraction to women and castration does not a woman make.*

As a lesbian myself, surely I have a say in who I am allowed to be attracted to? Are you saying I am not really a lesbian because I would not discount a relationship with someone trans?

Am I now kicked out of the lesbian gang for not being lesbian enough as well as kicked out the feminism gang for not being feminist enough? Gosh.

"As a lesbian myself, surely I have a say in who I am allowed to be attracted to?"

Yes of course you are. But not according to transactivists who think you should be grateful for some "lady stick" action. Because, if I understand them correctly, lesbians have sex by fingering or using a dildo and obviously the real thing is better.....

Yes, just as a FTM trans person should be able to grow a beard, compete in male sports and be treated by society as male."

Isn't it the point though that the reason that we have women's sports is that the playing field is level in both cases, due to the speed/strength/height/bone length/lung capacity/musculature etc of the men is different to the women? Otherwise we may as well just have mixed, and let the men win all the time and forget the women.

Do you honestly see a woman here, second on the left?

You can identify any way you like, perfectly. It's not for anyone else to tell you what you should call yourself. I imagine people will continue to think whatever they think.

Are you saying I am not really a lesbian because I would not discount a relationship with someone trans?

I'm saying that if you had a sexual relationship with a transwoman who had not had SRS, you would be in a heterosexual relationship. Although I do agree that there is a grey area in respect of post-SRS transwomen.

Nothing wrong with being bisexual!

It's sexuality, not genderality. Most trans people maintain their pre-transition sexuality through and post-transition. Heterosexual males stay heterosexual males: they just call themselves lesbian women. Homosexual females stay homosexual females: they just call themselves straight men.

Why the trans lobby thinks everyone else is suddenly going to change their sexual orientation just because someone else has decided to transition when they themselves do not, is entirely beyond me.

my point is to deny someone born biologically male the right to identity as a woman is to deny the very existence of transgender people.

No-one is denying the right of males to identify with aka feel like a female.
That would be as unreasonable as denying people the right to believe in God or like sport.

What feminists are saying is that feeling female doesn't make you a woman. Because being female is a material reality, with describable characteristics that apply across all sexually reproducing organisms. It's not a feeling.

Transgender people exist. Clearly they do. Saying they aren't actually part of the sex class they identify with isn't denying their existence.

I feel like this might just be a goady thread though as surely you know that not agreeing with someone's position doesn't mean they don't exist?

*As a lesbian myself, surely I have a say in who I am allowed to be attracted to? Are you saying I am not really a lesbian because I would not discount a relationship with someone trans?

Am I now kicked out of the lesbian gang for not being lesbian enough as well as kicked out the feminism gang for not being feminist enough? Gosh*

FFS Perfectly. Can you read? I clearly said 'many lesbians'. This was in response to your post where you said you would potentially have sex with someone trans, but 'many' would discount this. I was explaining the situation and perspective of 'many lesbians'.